UCL 2018/19 SF 2nd Leg Ajax-Spurs [R]

Post by a***@hotmail.com
Ajax have won three on the trot away from home, but have also not won in their last three home CL games.
If Spurs score one in the first half, then the away goal curse will start haunting Ajax.

Ajax already with their hand down Spurs' blouse.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 19:07:03 UTC

Ajax already with their hand down Spurs' blouse.

1-0 De Licht off a corner.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 19:09:09 UTC

Ajax already with their hand down Spurs' blouse.

1-0 De Licht off a corner.

And Korea's favorite Son hits Ajax's post a minute after. Good game.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 19:25:30 UTC

Ajax already with their hand down Spurs' blouse.

1-0 De Licht off a corner.

And Korea's favorite Son hits Ajax's post a minute after. Good game.

While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 19:26:49 UTC

Ajax already with their hand down Spurs' blouse.

1-0 De Licht off a corner.

And Korea's favorite Son hits Ajax's post a minute after. Good game.

While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both straight at the keeper.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 19:37:04 UTC

Ajax already with their hand down Spurs' blouse.

1-0 De Licht off a corner.

And Korea's favorite Son hits Ajax's post a minute after. Good game.

While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both straight at the keeper.

Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 19:40:14 UTC

Ajax already with their hand down Spurs' blouse.

1-0 De Licht off a corner.

And Korea's favorite Son hits Ajax's post a minute after. Good game.

While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both straight at the keeper.

Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

Ziyech, not a bad player himself, makes it 2-0.

2019 Champions League Final
June 1st, Madrid
Liverpool vs. Ajax

2019-05-08 20:30:54 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both straight at the keeper.

Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

Never really "got" him, but he has lots of serious competition for most
over-rated, no ? Like Barkley, Kovacic, Pogba, Higuain, Jorginho, Dier,
Kyle Walker, ....

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 20:35:03 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both straight at the keeper.

Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

Never really "got" him, but he has lots of serious competition for most
over-rated, no ?

Well for starters, how about his Transfermarkt value, listed at $114M?

milivella

2019-05-09 19:44:03 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in
and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both straight at the keeper.

Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

Never really "got" him, but he has lots of serious competition for most
over-rated, no ? Like Barkley, Kovacic, Pogba, Higuain, Jorginho, Dier,
Kyle Walker, ....

How is Higuain overrated?

(Sorry, this may be my last chance to debate about GGH while he's
active! However, I'm serious. I think people don't expect from him more
than he produces.)

On the other hand, I totally agree on Alli-Pogba-Walker.

--
Cheers
milivella

2019-05-09 21:21:57 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in
and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both
straight at the keeper.

Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

Never really "got" him, but he has lots of serious competition for most
over-rated, no ? Like Barkley, Kovacic, Pogba, Higuain, Jorginho, Dier,
Kyle Walker, ....

How is Higuain overrated?

90 Million transfer fee to get him to Juve. 18 Million loan fee to go
to Milan (with buyout option at 36 Million more). Is that not over-rated ?

Post by milivella
(Sorry, this may be my last chance to debate about GGH while he's
active! However, I'm serious. I think people don't expect from him more
than he produces.)
On the other hand, I totally agree on Alli-Pogba-Walker.
--
Cheers
milivella

milivella

2019-05-11 00:11:23 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in
and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both
straight at the keeper.

Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

Never really "got" him, but he has lots of serious competition for most
over-rated, no ? Like Barkley, Kovacic, Pogba, Higuain, Jorginho, Dier,
Kyle Walker, ....

How is Higuain overrated?

90 Million transfer fee to get him to Juve. 18 Million loan fee to go
to Milan (with buyout option at 36 Million more). Is that not over-rated ?

(it's hard to reply, but again, it may be my last chance to defend an
active Higuain - let's do it)

- "To rate a player" has several meanings. It may refer to what people
expect from that player, how he is remembered, and so on. Money is not
the only way to rate a player (and, as far as money go, I would opt for
wages over fees, but this doesn't matter here). You, too, seem to
consider other meaning of "overrating", otherwise I don't see how Dier
(max fee in career 5 Million) Barkley (MFIC 16.9 Million) can be overrated.

- ...But let's limit ourselves to fees. You mentioned two of the latest
three fees (you may have mentioned all three, as Chelsea paid 9 Million
for half a season). However, why should we stop here? 12 Million to get
him to Real Madrid, where he got 122 goals and 56 assists in 264
matches. 39 Million to get him to Napoli, where he got 92 goals and 26
assists in 147 matches. Is that not under-rated?

- ...But let's limit ourselves to the last three years. 90 Million for
the player that just got the record for most goals scored in the history
of Serie A is not too much (also consider they legally couldn't have him
for less than 90M). Nor is 90M too much for a player that gets you 55
goals and 12 assists in 105 matches, plus 2 league titles, 2 cup titles
and 1 Champions League final in 2 seasons. And starting from these
stats, 36 Million in a market where Raul Jimenez costs 38M, Pavard 35M
and Demirbay 32M (no cherry-picking, these are literally the three
closest fees [1]) doesn't seem much.

- Also, Higuain's start at Milan was good. By October 7, he already had
2 goals in Europa League, 4 goals + 1 assist in Serie A. Even at Chelsea
he is at 202 minutes/goal, enough to be in the top 30, ahead of
Arnautovic, Firmino, Rashford, Raul Jimenez (!), Sturridge, etc. [2].

All in all, I still think Higuain is not overrated.

[1] https://www.transfermarkt.com/statistik/neuestetransfers

[2]
https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/torschuetzenliste/wettbewerb/GB1/saison_id/2018/altersklasse/alle/detailpos//plus/1

--
Cheers
milivella

milivella

2019-06-12 11:40:02 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
While de Jong and de Ligt are all the rage, someone should sneak in
and take de Beek (hint: Jurgen). What a nifty little player.

Spurs really getting into it now. Two clear looks at goal, both
straight at the keeper.

Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

Never really "got" him, but he has lots of serious competition for most
over-rated, no ? Like Barkley, Kovacic, Pogba, Higuain, Jorginho, Dier,
Kyle Walker, ....

How is Higuain overrated?

90 Million transfer fee to get him to Juve. 18 Million loan fee to go
to Milan (with buyout option at 36 Million more). Is that not over-rated ?

(it's hard to reply, but again, it may be my last chance to defend an
active Higuain - let's do it)

Here are some pro-MH data:
http://eightyfivepoints.blogspot.com/2019/05/from-sessegnon-to-sanchez-how-to.html

--
Cheers
milivella

vedran

2019-05-09 21:59:57 UTC

Post by MH
Never really "got" him, but he has lots of serious competition for most
over-rated, no ? Like Barkley, Kovacic, Pogba, Higuain, Jorginho, Dier,
Kyle Walker, ....

Here in Croatia a player who gets called a fraud most often is
undoubtedly Kovacic, luckily he didn't get a chance to
shoot a penalty tonight.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-08 21:18:36 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
Dele Alli must be the most overrated player in the EPL.

The Weaufx are strong in you, young Jedi: after Shaqiri yesterday, two more decisive assists for a player you disparaged at half-time...

Abubakr

2019-05-08 19:37:55 UTC

Game over!

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 19:43:34 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Game over!

Guardiola must be kicking himself for bottling it against these jokers.

Abubakr

2019-05-08 19:51:27 UTC

Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

Abubakr

2019-05-08 20:21:12 UTC

Wait what?

The Doctor

2019-05-08 20:42:57 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Wait what?

Yes!

--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Newfoundland on 16 May 2019, do not vote PC nor NDP!

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 20:22:02 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

umm, 2-2 in 2 minutes. Lucas Moura with two excellent finishes.

Match day program updated below:

2019 Champions League Final
June 1st, Madrid
Liverpool vs. Ajax or Spurs

Murat Bey

2019-05-08 20:22:17 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-08 20:29:29 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

Ajax leaving way too much space at the back. Maybe they could do with a dose of Allegri?

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-08 20:57:52 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

Ajax leaving way too much space at the back. Maybe they could do with a dose of Allegri?

COYS!

Jesper Lauridsen

2019-05-08 21:21:16 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

Ajax leaving way too much space at the back. Maybe they could do with a dose of Allegri?

COYS!

What the hell, Ajax? Beating Real Madrid and Juventus only to go out
against this awful Spurs side?

Mehdi

2019-05-08 22:40:31 UTC

Post by Jesper Lauridsen
What the hell, Ajax? Beating Real Madrid and Juventus only to go out
against this awful Spurs side?

Spurs are a big, athletic side, Juve and Real Madrid have too many slow,
old players.

Werner Pichler

2019-05-12 20:43:12 UTC

Post by Jesper Lauridsen

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

Ajax leaving way too much space at the back. Maybe they could do
with a dose of Allegri?

COYS!

What the hell, Ajax? Beating Real Madrid and Juventus only to go out
against this awful Spurs side?

And this is how Salzburg's Champions League curse ends after 13 years, with an
incredible comeback by Tottenham, of all teams, and a dramatic 95th-minute goal.
I still can't quite believe it.

It appears I chose one of the most fascinating weeks in European football in
recent years to go away and tackle the Selvaggio Blu on Sardinia. Oh well.

Ciao,
Werner

Diabolik

2019-05-13 23:46:11 UTC

Post by Jesper Lauridsen

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

Ajax leaving way too much space at the back. Maybe they could do
with a dose of Allegri?

COYS!

What the hell, Ajax? Beating Real Madrid and Juventus only to go out
against this awful Spurs side?
And this is how Salzburg's Champions League curse ends after 13 years, with an
incredible comeback by Tottenham, of all teams, and a dramatic 95th-minute goal.
I still can't quite believe it.
It appears I chose one of the most fascinating weeks in European football in
recent years to go away and tackle the Selvaggio Blu on Sardinia. Oh well.

Well worth it ;)

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 20:30:11 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

I have no horse in this game as I really don't know who would be an easier/harder opponent for LFC, but my heart beat has actually picked up. Maybe emphatically for the two teams involved, after flirting with cardiac arrest himself yesterday.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-08 20:31:33 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

Empatheticaly, not emphatically.

Murat Bey

2019-05-08 20:54:28 UTC

Post by Murat Bey
If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

I have no horse in this game

Me neither, I'm actually doing some work at the same time while the game's on TV. I just said Spurs because they never won this trophy and are underdogs.

Otherwise, it'd probably root for Ajax :)

But I wouldn't lose sleep if Liverpool won it, they're frighteningly good.

Post by a***@hotmail.com
as I really don't know who would be an easier/harder opponent for LFC, but my heart beat has actually picked up. Maybe emphatically for the two teams involved, after flirting with cardiac arrest himself yesterday.

The Doctor

2019-05-08 20:55:29 UTC

Post by Murat Bey
If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

I have no horse in this game

Me neither, I'm actually doing some work at the same time while the
game's on TV. I just said Spurs because they never won this trophy and
are underdogs.
Otherwise, it'd probably root for Ajax :)
But I wouldn't lose sleep if Liverpool won it, they're frighteningly good.

Post by a***@hotmail.com
as I really don't know who would be an easier/harder opponent for LFC,

but my heart beat has actually picked up. Maybe emphatically for the two
teams involved, after flirting with cardiac arrest himself yesterday.

Ajax - Liverpool will be like Arsenal - Barca in Paris!

Murat Bey

2019-05-08 20:59:24 UTC

Post by The Doctor

Post by Murat Bey
If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

I have no horse in this game

Me neither, I'm actually doing some work at the same time while the
game's on TV. I just said Spurs because they never won this trophy and
are underdogs.
Otherwise, it'd probably root for Ajax :)
But I wouldn't lose sleep if Liverpool won it, they're frighteningly good.

Post by a***@hotmail.com
as I really don't know who would be an easier/harder opponent for LFC,

but my heart beat has actually picked up. Maybe emphatically for the two
teams involved, after flirting with cardiac arrest himself yesterday.

Ajax - Liverpool will be like Arsenal - Barca in Paris!

It won't :)

The Doctor

2019-05-08 20:59:58 UTC

Post by Murat Bey
If Spurs go to final, I want them to win.

I have no horse in this game

Me neither, I'm actually doing some work at the same time while the
game's on TV. I just said Spurs because they never won this trophy and
are underdogs.
Otherwise, it'd probably root for Ajax :)
But I wouldn't lose sleep if Liverpool won it, they're frighteningly good.

Post by a***@hotmail.com
as I really don't know who would be an easier/harder opponent for LFC,

but my heart beat has actually picked up. Maybe emphatically for the two
teams involved, after flirting with cardiac arrest himself yesterday.

Ajax - Liverpool will be like Arsenal - Barca in Paris!

It won't :)

Spurs vs Pool and I am cheering for Spurs!

Abubakr

2019-05-08 21:01:02 UTC

Cruel cruel away goals...

The Doctor

2019-05-08 21:01:18 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Cruel cruel away goals...

But boy what a game!

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-08 21:03:24 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Cruel cruel away goals...

Beautiful, beautiful away goals! Doubles the drama.

Abubakr

2019-05-08 21:07:51 UTC

Antithesis of sport

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-08 21:15:29 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Antithesis of sport

It's a tiebreaker. It's either this, or some other tiebreaker. Suppose no AGR: Spurs still attack desperately to get the equalizer, but the drama at the end is much more muted, because there are still 30 minutes to play. 30 minutes which are often inferior and overcautious football with exhausted players, only to see the tie decided on penalties (not a particular celebration of sport either)

Abubakr

2019-05-08 21:53:48 UTC

The team that wins on penalties has put the ball the in back of net more times than their opponent.

And yes, we were robbed of another 30mins of riveting semi final play as well.

;)

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-09 12:46:47 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Antithesis of sport

It's a tiebreaker. It's either this, or some other tiebreaker.

The problem is, it's a highly arbitrary tie-breaker. The original reasons for its introduction are no longer valid. From the BBC:

The away goals rule was introduced in the now defunct European Cup Winners' Cup in 1965, making its debut in the European Cup two years later, initially in the first round before being extended to the second the following season and the whole tournament from the 1970-71 season.

It was principally devised to avoid the need for costly third games and to end the need for a coin toss should this game also end all-square. (Penalty shootouts were yet to be widely adopted.)

This was not the only reason. Back in the 60s, travelling around Europe was neither quick nor cheap and players were often heading into the unknown to face opponents of whom they had little or no prior knowledge, on pitches of wildly varying quality.

It is hardly surprising then that away wins in two-legged ties were so rare and visiting teams so eager to dig in for 90 minutes in order to claim a score they could overturn at home - a tactical approach Uefa were keen to discourage.

Only 18.98% of legs in European Cup ties were won by the away team prior to the introduction of away goals.

Abubakr

2019-05-09 13:22:51 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Antithesis of sport

It's a tiebreaker. It's either this, or some other tiebreaker.

The problem is, it's a highly arbitrary tie-breaker.

Correct. We could just as justifiably use the first goal scored as a tie-breaker.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-09 13:40:20 UTC

Post by Abubakr

Post by Abubakr
Antithesis of sport

It's a tiebreaker. It's either this, or some other tiebreaker.

The problem is, it's a highly arbitrary tie-breaker.

Correct. We could just as justifiably use the first goal scored as a tie-breaker.

Exactly, with some flawed justification that "it will encourage both teams to attack early."

Mehdi

2019-05-10 10:12:16 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
Exactly, with some flawed justification that "it will encourage both teams to attack early."

It's not flawed. It encourages teams to take risks. You don't need more
evidence for that than what happened this week. It's a better
tie-breaker than penalties.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-09 15:37:24 UTC

Any tiebreaker is somewhat arbitrary. What is non-arbitrary in making teams stop playing football and instead take one-on-one shots from 11 meters?

You need some method of deciding who advances in a tied knockout game. And you need a criterion for deciding which method is more desirable. The criterion apparently used by UEFA when they introduced the AGR was to encourage attacking play away from home and reduce fixture congestion. AGR obviously achieved the second objective, while all evidence seems to indicate that it was completely ineffective in achieving the first objective.

The point is, who cares? UEFA stumbled into an arbitrary method for settling ties in the late 1960s, and it turned out that that method has the absolutely *fantastic* side effect that it creates situations in which a single goal turns the tide of a tie completely on its head. Lucas Moura's goal yesterday, just like Sergi Roberto's goal against PSG two years ago, changed their team's win probability from 0 to 1. No other event in all of sports is as dramatic.

To put it differently: because football is so low-scoring, there is nothing in all of sports that carries as much emotional weight as a goal. What makes goals so unique is that they tend to create huge swings in the emotional balance of a match. What the AGR does is that it takes all of that, and doubles the dose.

It's the best rule ever.

Jesus Petry

2019-05-09 15:57:15 UTC

Post by Futbolmetrix
Any tiebreaker is somewhat arbitrary. What is non-arbitrary in making teams stop playing football and instead take one-on-one shots from 11 meters?
You need some method of deciding who advances in a tied knockout game. And you need a criterion for deciding which method is more desirable. The criterion apparently used by UEFA when they introduced the AGR was to encourage attacking play away from home and reduce fixture congestion. AGR obviously achieved the second objective, while all evidence seems to indicate that it was completely ineffective in achieving the first objective.
The point is, who cares? UEFA stumbled into an arbitrary method for settling ties in the late 1960s, and it turned out that that method has the absolutely *fantastic* side effect that it creates situations in which a single goal turns the tide of a tie completely on its head. Lucas Moura's goal yesterday, just like Sergi Roberto's goal against PSG two years ago, changed their team's win probability from 0 to 1. No other event in all of sports is as dramatic.
To put it differently: because football is so low-scoring, there is nothing in all of sports that carries as much emotional weight as a goal. What makes goals so unique is that they tend to create huge swings in the emotional balance of a match. What the AGR does is that it takes all of that, and doubles the dose.
It's the best rule ever.

It is exciting, but I don't see the concrete sporting merit.

How about, in case of equal GD, playing PKs *first* and then the PKs winner has the advantage of the draw in overtime? It should be just as exciting and possibly fairer - I suspect goals would be almost guaranteed in this sort of extra time, be it from the team who needs desperately to score for having lost on PKs or the opponents who'd have plenty of opportunity for counterattacks.

Tchau!
Jesus Petry

2019-05-09 16:16:17 UTC

Post by Jesus Petry

It is exciting, but I don't see the concrete sporting merit.
How about, in case of equal GD,

How about allowing one extra sub and playing 30 minutes of extra time.
If still tied, either apply away goals at that point, or take a five
minute break, allow another two subs, and play sudden death extra time
until one team scores. After half an hour, another break and two more
subs allowed. and so on

playing PKs *first* and then the PKs winner has the advantage of the
draw in overtime? It should be just as exciting and possibly fairer - I
suspect goals would be almost guaranteed in this sort of extra time, be
it from the team who needs desperately to score for having lost on PKs
or the opponents who'd have plenty of opportunity for counterattacks.

Post by Jesus Petry
Tchau!
Jesus Petry

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-09 16:25:22 UTC

Post by Jesus Petry

It is exciting, but I don't see the concrete sporting merit.
How about, in case of equal GD,

Sounds a little tedious :-)

But yes, there are a 100 ways to skin this cat, and I'm sure 90 of them are better than AGR.

Mehdi

2019-05-10 10:16:56 UTC

Post by MH
How about allowing one extra sub and playing 30 minutes of extra time.
If still tied, either apply away goals at that point, or take a five
minute break, allow another two subs, and play sudden death extra time
until one team scores. After half an hour, another break and two more
subs allowed. and so on

Where is there a need to change anything? The system works and adds drama.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-09 16:46:37 UTC

Post by Jesus Petry
It is exciting, but I don't see the concrete sporting merit.
How about, in case of equal GD, playing PKs *first* and then the PKs
winner has the advantage of the draw in overtime? It should be just as
exciting and possibly fairer - I suspect goals would be almost guaranteed in
this sort of extra time, be it from the team who needs desperately to score
for having lost on PKs or the opponents who'd have plenty of opportunity for
counterattacks.

I wouldn't be opposed to this. I don't think the effect would be huge, but I do think it would go in the direction that you suggest (I've been collecting some data on this with the help of milivella, so stay tuned). One issue is that the PK shootout itself would have to be much shorter to prevent injuries to players who have to go back running at full speed after having cooled off,

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-09 20:11:55 UTC

Post by Futbolmetrix
I wouldn't be opposed to this. I don't think the effect would be huge, but I do
think it would go in the direction that you suggest (I've been collecting some
data on this with the help of milivella, so stay tuned).

Quickie coarse look at the data. European two-legged ties between 2003-2004 and 2018-2019 (knockout phases for all years, qualifiers also from 2009-2010 onwards), a total of 2531 two-legged ties.

Goal per minute rate from the 75th minute of the return leg onwards (including extra time):

When a single goal flips the tie around: 0.0321 (N=11,269)
When a single goal sends the tie to extra-time: 0.0288 (N=5,313)
When the score is exactly tied: 0.0242 (N=7,430)
All other situations: 0.0316 (N=31,946)

[N represents the sample size, or the number of minutes in which the tie is in a given state].

So yes, goals are less frequent when both teams have the security blanket of penalty kicks to look forward to (the differences are statistically significant at the 5% level, if you ask).

Mehdi

2019-05-10 10:15:46 UTC

Post by Jesus Petry
It is exciting, but I don't see the concrete sporting merit.
How about, in case of equal GD, playing PKs *first* and then the PKs winner has the advantage of the draw in overtime? It should be just as exciting and possibly fairer - I suspect goals would be almost guaranteed in this sort of extra time, be it from the team who needs desperately to score for having lost on PKs or the opponents who'd have plenty of opportunity for counterattacks.
Tchau!
Jesus Petry

That's too contrived and would make penalties largely redundant because
the drama in a shoot-out is the finality. This method would take away
the element of finality.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-09 16:14:44 UTC

This argument is similar to Platini's (and many other sentimentalists') argument against VAR, i.e. "it takes the emotions out of the game."

And my view is the same for AGR as it is for VAR: Emotions and drama are great, but they don't trump justice. There is no justice in the AGR, in fact it can be argued that it's even more random than a PK shootout because putting away (or saving) a PK takes at last some skill.

If a creative solution can worked out than more just than PKs and AGR, I'm all for it. As suggested on RSS numerous time before, ice hockey style shootouts with creative variations (e.g. 2 attackers vs. 1 defender and GK with a time limit) would be more just and extremely exciting. But in the interim, PKs are still more just than AGR, IMO.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-09 16:39:38 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
This argument is similar to Platini's (and many other sentimentalists') argument against VAR, i.e. "it takes the emotions out of the game."
And my view is the same for AGR as it is for VAR: Emotions and drama are great, but they don't trump justice. There is no justice in the AGR,

I don't agree with the analogy. VAR (and goal-line technology) correct the injustice that is caused by fallible human referees that can't possibly see every infraction on the field of play. In the pre-VAR world, some results were unjust because the team that should have won based on the agreed upon rules of the game, sometimes did not.

There is nothing *unjust* in the AGR. Both teams know exactly what the rules are, and play by those rules. Arbitrary, maybe. But not unjust.

in fact it can be argued that it's even more random than a PK shootout because putting away (or saving) a PK takes at last some skill.

Post by a***@hotmail.com
If a creative solution can worked out than more just than PKs and AGR, I'm all for it. As suggested on RSS numerous time before, ice hockey style shootouts with creative variations (e.g. 2 attackers vs. 1 defender and GK with a time limit) would be more just and extremely exciting. But in the interim, PKs are still more just than AGR, IMO.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-09 16:47:38 UTC

I don't agree with the analogy. VAR (and goal-line technology) correct the injustice that is caused by fallible human referees that can't possibly see every infraction on the field of play. In the pre-VAR world, some results were unjust because the team that should have won based on the agreed upon rules of the game, sometimes did not.
There is nothing *unjust* in the AGR. Both teams know exactly what the rules are, and play by those rules. Arbitrary, maybe. But not unjust.

OK, that's fair.

How about unjust not in terms of the letter of the law, but unjust in terms of the spirit of the game? :-)

Binder Dundat

2019-05-09 18:57:24 UTC

Travesty of football this match, terrible to see Ajax lose this, they have this habit of conceding goals late in the game. I think it is a Dutch thing to give up late (yes I can say this about the Dutch due to having a Dutch wife), weak as a Dutchman, that is how the ole saying goes. At least two Spurs players should have seen red Sissoko and the other Black guy come to mind.

Lily White, who just recently passed away in a flood, must be celebrating in his watery grave. Lil Lucas is the newest hearththrob of football, I seem to recall him playing in a Junior South Ameican cup and being the hearthrob along with Neymar, I actually like lil Lucas better back then. Judging by how old Lil Lucas looks, it was probably about 20 years ago?

The worst thing of all this, is it is a step back for football. Two WWepl teams in a Euro final is like having a bunch of burqa wearing muslim broads in a bikini contest, it is just backwards and against the idea of the competition. WWEpl has brought football down to that low level that appeals to the Asian and American markets, it is just utter shit now, not a sport but a soap opera. A fixed match tv show for idiots with too much time on their hands, who want dramatic endings to their tv shows.

Four WWEpl teams in the finals and football is officially no longer a sport, but an entertainment spectacle industry like the WWE. That is all the stupid, backwards Asian and Americans want. All you talk about is stupid tactics and manager press conferences and you have no idea what you are talking about. Playing really hard, running really fast and having more will to win then the other team are not tactics. Giving a post game press conference and saying some stupid Kloppo shit is not a tactic, a ball boy quickly giving the ball to the corner kicker is not a tactic- actually that one sort of is a tactic, especially if you do the opposite to the opponents.

I think only Womens football is still real, but I doubt it will be for long, stupid Limeys will sell out and ruin that as well. Thank goodness for the NHL and real sports competition!

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-10 01:16:40 UTC

Post by Binder Dundat
Travesty of football this match, terrible to see Ajax lose this, they have this habit of conceding goals late in the game. I think it is a Dutch thing to give up late (yes I can say this about the Dutch due to having a Dutch wife), weak as a Dutchman, that is how the ole saying goes. At least two Spurs players should have seen red Sissoko and the other Black guy come to mind.
Lily White, who just recently passed away in a flood, must be celebrating in his watery grave. Lil Lucas is the newest hearththrob of football, I seem to recall him playing in a Junior South Ameican cup and being the hearthrob along with Neymar, I actually like lil Lucas better back then. Judging by how old Lil Lucas looks, it was probably about 20 years ago?
The worst thing of all this, is it is a step back for football. Two WWepl teams in a Euro final is like having a bunch of burqa wearing muslim broads in a bikini contest, it is just backwards and against the idea of the competition. WWEpl has brought football down to that low level that appeals to the Asian and American markets, it is just utter shit now, not a sport but a soap opera. A fixed match tv show for idiots with too much time on their hands, who want dramatic endings to their tv shows.
Four WWEpl teams in the finals and football is officially no longer a sport, but an entertainment spectacle industry like the WWE. That is all the stupid, backwards Asian and Americans want. All you talk about is stupid tactics and manager press conferences and you have no idea what you are talking about. Playing really hard, running really fast and having more will to win then the other team are not tactics. Giving a post game press conference and saying some stupid Kloppo shit is not a tactic, a ball boy quickly giving the ball to the corner kicker is not a tactic- actually that one sort of is a tactic, especially if you do the opposite to the opponents.
I think only Womens football is still real, but I doubt it will be for long, stupid Limeys will sell out and ruin that as well. Thank goodness for the NHL and real sports competition!

You seem like a delicate and sensitive type, have you considered watching non-contact sports instead? May I suggest badminton and table tennis - both have no contact and require a lot of skill. If team sports is more your thing, then I can recommend synchronized swimming - a lot of grace and very limited and gentle contact.

Abubakr

2019-05-09 20:56:39 UTC

Of course it's unjust - i can't believe you're using the both sides know the rule, and therefore this makes it fair, argument. The world is full of shit laws that we know are unjust.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-09 21:03:16 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Of course it's unjust - i can't believe you're using the both sides know the rule, and therefore this makes it fair, argument. The world is full of shit laws that we know are unjust.

Again, we may disagree on whether the law is good or bad. But how is it "unjust" or "unfair"? The only potential unfairness is the fact that the away team in the second leg has 30 extra minutes to score an away goal, which is counterbalanced by the fact that the home team in the return leg plays 30 more minutes at home. It's a wash

Mehdi

2019-05-10 10:18:33 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
And my view is the same for AGR as it is for VAR: Emotions and drama are great, but they don't trump justice. There is no justice in the AGR, in fact it can be argued that it's even more random than a PK shootout because putting away (or saving) a PK takes at last some skill.

Of course there's justice. There's a reward for scoring away from home.

Mehdi

2019-05-10 10:14:16 UTC

Agreed 100%.

Google Beta User

2019-05-11 01:09:23 UTC

On AGR: Fairness and common sense IMO should be a priority over “drama”. It’s not a summer blockbuster movie.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-11 03:48:31 UTC

Post by Google Beta User
On AGR: Fairness and common sense IMO should be a priority over “drama”. It’s not a summer blockbuster movie.

Aaargh.... how is it not *fair*?

El Kot

2019-05-11 10:53:00 UTC

Post by Google Beta User
On AGR: Fairness and common sense IMO should be a priority over “drama”.
It’s not a summer blockbuster movie.

Aaargh.... how is it not *fair*?

A good question indeed - what does "fair" mean in this context?

Let's take the two recent Spurs wins because of the AGR - were they fair? Did
Spurs deserve to advance in both cases? Or just in one?

Thinking of alternative rules, one possible and simple alternative is "most
goals scored in one game". If this rule, MGS, had been in effect, Spurs still
would have eliminated Ajax. However, they would have lost the other tie, since
Man City scored the most goals. Which outcome would have been fairer - AGR, MGS,
something else?

--
No, no, you can't e-mail me with the nono.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-11 20:50:19 UTC

Post by El Kot

Post by Futbolmetrix
Aaargh.... how is it not *fair*?

A good question indeed - what does "fair" mean in this context?
Let's take the two recent Spurs wins because of the AGR - were they fair? Did
Spurs deserve to advance in both cases? Or just in one?

"Deserve" is a whole different matter, and quite irrelevant in this discussion. Team A could very well score *more* goals than Team B over the two-legged tie and it would not necessarily "deserve" to advance, based on many people's definition of "deserving".

Post by El Kot
Thinking of alternative rules, one possible and simple alternative is "most
goals scored in one game". If this rule, MGS, had been in effect, Spurs still
would have eliminated Ajax. However, they would have lost the other tie, since
Man City scored the most goals. Which outcome would have been fairer - AGR, MGS,
something else?

Interesting idea. The main effect would be that a 2-1 or 3-2 away loss in the first leg would no longer be considered such a good result.

Here's another idea for those that resent the arbitrariness of AGR: if the aggregate score is tied after 180 minutes, play extra time. AGR is used only at the end of the 120 minutes. This is similar to idea of having PKs before extra time is played: at the start of ET, one team has a handicap

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-11 13:52:05 UTC

Post by Google Beta User
On AGR: Fairness and common sense IMO should be a priority over “drama”. It’s not a summer blockbuster movie.

Aaargh.... how is it not *fair*?

Semantics.

Letter vs. Spirit.

Abubakr

2019-05-12 21:54:52 UTC

Why it's not fair is self evident, it's a tie on goal difference.

The idea of winning was ostensibly to score more goals than your opponent at some point in the past; it wasn't to score an equal number or less goals.

They came up with the AGR to eliminate the need for replays but before penalty shoot outs and extra time.

Now that we already have PKs as a tie breaker we no longer need this anachronistic and unsporting rule.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-12 23:44:14 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Now that we already have PKs as a tie breaker we no longer need this anachronistic and unsporting rule.

PKs are fun and exciting, but they are as unsporting as deciding ties based on any other criterion.

Abubakr

2019-05-13 01:22:42 UTC

Why would you think PK are unsporting?

They are a bona fide method of scoring, and the shoot out therefore as a tiebreaker is the most just system yet devised.

2019-05-13 03:44:57 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Why would you think PK are unsporting?
They are a bona fide method of scoring, and the shoot out therefore as a tiebreaker is the most just system yet devised.

Why is that more just than a replay on neutral ground (which used to be
done)? Or playing extra time.

Abubakr

2019-05-13 04:22:38 UTC

I meant in a practical sense - if you're going to have two legged ties.

Extra games beyond that are not really tie breakers as such.

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-13 16:43:43 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Why would you think PK are unsporting?
They are a bona fide method of scoring, and the shoot out therefore as a tiebreaker is the most just system yet devised.

If by "sporting" you mean "rewarding (on average) the team that is better at playing the game of football" then no, PKs are not sporting.

Abubakr

2019-05-13 20:55:33 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Why would you think PK are unsporting?
They are a bona fide method of scoring, and the shoot out therefore as a tiebreaker is the most just system yet devised.

If by "sporting" you mean "rewarding (on average) the team that is better at playing the game of football" then no, PKs are not sporting.

By sporting I mean the team designated the winner should be the team that wins according to the original meaning of winning in the game, scoring more goals than their opponent.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-13 14:42:32 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Now that we already have PKs as a tie breaker we no longer need this anachronistic and unsporting rule.

PKs are fun and exciting, but they are as unsporting as deciding ties based on any other criterion.

I am actually OKish with your earlier suggestion that AGR should only apply after extra-time has been played and scores are still equal. It would eliminate the late sucker punch on the home team, the type that Spurs twice inflicted this year, on Man City and Ajax. To me that is the worst consequence of AGR - you're winning and then suddenly you're losing with no middle ground - it's intolerable cruelty.

In this proposed scenario at least the home team in the second leg has been served notice that they have to regain the score advantage in ET, or else they suffer an AGR defeat.

Ideally I would like to see this silly and random AGR completely eliminated; but I can be a man of compromise :-)

Futbolmetrix

2019-05-13 16:46:37 UTC

Post by a***@hotmail.com
It would eliminate the late sucker punch on the home team, the type that Spurs
twice inflicted this year, on Man City and Ajax. To me that is the worst
consequence of AGR - you're winning and then suddenly you're losing with no
middle ground - it's intolerable cruelty.

But see, that is what is actually in my eyes the *best* thing of AGR. Intolerable cruelty for the losing team, but also inimitable drama (for the neutrals) and elation (for the winning team).

Abubakr

2019-05-13 20:56:33 UTC

But see, that is what is actually in my eyes the *best* thing of AGR. Intolerable cruelty for the losing team, but also inimitable drama (for the neutrals) and elation (for the winning team).

Watch Game of Thrones instead.

The Doctor

2019-05-08 20:42:43 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Yeah but Ajax-Liverpool is a pretty tasty final. Forza Ajax!

Ajax 3 Spurs 2 aggregate so far.

Real Mardin

2019-05-09 05:47:49 UTC

The moral of the story is two fold:

1) Singing "Don't worry about a thing, cause every little thing gonna be alright" when you're leading with 45 minutes left might look impressive for the tv cameras and it might even show good taste in music, but it really is asking for trouble.

2) Never give up, never surrender! (to quote Tim Allen's character from Galaxy Quest)

RM

Murat Bey

2019-05-09 06:57:02 UTC

Post by Real Mardin
2) Never give up, never surrender! (to quote Tim Allen's character from Galaxy Quest)

Love the movie..

Murat Bey

2019-05-08 20:23:49 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Game over!

Guardiola must be kicking himself for bottling it against these jokers.

He's an idiot for keeping Sane and De Bruyne on the bench the whole time, that plus the strength of City squad is grossly exaggerated just like his Bayern side was.

Bruce Scott

2019-05-09 11:49:11 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Game over!

Guardiola must be kicking himself for bottling it against these jokers.

:-))) So Ajax had to follow. Doing that in two ties in a row is
really impressive... don't underestimate them in the Final!

--
ciao, Bruce

The Doctor

2019-05-08 20:42:02 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Game over!

You think?

Abubakr

2019-05-08 20:45:09 UTC

Best semis eva!

Abubakr

2019-05-08 20:52:20 UTC

Why do Ajax only have 3 stars on their crest?

2019-05-08 21:20:56 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Why do Ajax only have 3 stars on their crest?

33 Eredivisie titles ?
1 star for each set of 10 ?
That would be my guess.

2019-05-08 22:06:48 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Best semis eva!

They were very good, but I thought you did not like upsets and underdogs
and unexpected results, but for the "best teams" to be in the late
stages of the tournament.

So this year we have two teams that have not won their league in many
many years, and finished second in their groups in the group stage, and
have both lost four games so far in the tournament (Liverpool 7-1-4,
Spurs 6-2-4) in the final.

I am not complaining, I think this is great and a welcome change from
seeing Real Madrid four of the last five years, but it sure underlines
the fact that this is very much a cup (knock-out) competition, in spite
of its bizarre name and format.

Abubakr

2019-05-08 22:20:08 UTC

Huh? I would've gone for the underdog Ajax in the final. Besides if the underdog deserves to win, then who can argue with that.

Liverpool are hardly an outsider at this stage. Tottenham were, given their so so league form, but they've had the luck of the draw and the anachronism of the away goals rule to help them along.

Murat Bey

2019-05-08 23:12:08 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Huh? I would've gone for the underdog Ajax in the final. Besides if the underdog deserves to win, then who can argue with that.

Spurs are also underdogs. Everybody talks about Klopp being the "miracle worker" and he is but he spent over 400m euros (more than Mourinho at United) since he, Guardiola and Mourinho started working at their respective clubs to work that miracle and he should but people conveniently skip that.

Spurs not only spent less than all of them but their players are underpaid compared to other top 6.

Abubakr

2019-05-08 23:43:02 UTC

Spurs are not favourites but they're still a rich, top 6 EPL side.

Chalk and cheese compared to Ajax's youthful giant killers.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-09 01:57:03 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Huh? I would've gone for the underdog Ajax in the final. Besides if the underdog deserves to win, then who can argue with that.

Looking merely at outgoing spend is simplistic and misleading.

Net Spend:
Guardiola €430M
Mourinho €338M
Klopp €127M

Net spend is much more relevant because players are sold because cash needs to be raised for purchases, players force moves to bigger clubs, or they are mistakes/misfits that need to be rectified. But sold players have an impact in terms of lost quality and/or squad depth and have repercussions that have to be managed.

Post by Murat Bey
Spurs not only spent less than all of them but their players are underpaid compared to other top 6.

Yes, Poch has a net spend of only €58M which is the most impressive.

Murat Bey

2019-05-09 06:56:26 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Huh? I would've gone for the underdog Ajax in the final. Besides if the underdog deserves to win, then who can argue with that.

Looking merely at outgoing spend is simplistic and misleading.
Guardiola €430M
Mourinho €338M
Klopp €127M
Net spend is much more relevant because players are sold because cash needs to be raised for purchases, players force moves to bigger clubs, or they are mistakes/misfits that need to be rectified. But sold players have an impact in terms of lost quality and/or squad depth and have repercussions that have to be managed.

It's actually irrelevant from an accounting point of view, point is, you're still spending a ton of money on a number of players to raise your level to world class while some other club (Spurs) isn't.

You spent £75m on a defender, £65m on a GOALKEEPER (who, imo, isn't that much of an improvement over Ederson btw, both seem to be average keepers in my opinion), around £90m on two midfielders for further depth when you already have a team that made the CL final.. Not that I'm blaming you or anything, you should be spending. It's just that Klopp spent more than Mourinho in 3 years to assemble a world class team (Mourinho is a donkey of course, with the money he spent he could've done a much better job).

Just making a comparison with Spurs.

Post by Murat Bey
Spurs not only spent less than all of them but their players are underpaid compared to other top 6.

Yes, Poch has a net spend of only €58M which is the most impressive.

Yes.

a***@hotmail.com

2019-05-09 13:37:56 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Huh? I would've gone for the underdog Ajax in the final. Besides if the underdog deserves to win, then who can argue with that.

It's actually irrelevant from an accounting point of view

Huh? It is completely relevant.

Post by Murat Bey
You spent £75m on a defender, £65m on a GOALKEEPER (who, imo, isn't that much of an improvement over Ederson btw, both seem to be average keepers in my opinion), around £90m on two midfielders for further depth when you already have a team that made the CL final..

A lot of which was funded by the £145m sale of one of our best players, one who actually forced the move. The loss of quality had to be managed.

Even mighty Barca could not have afforded both Dembele or Coutinho if it wasn't for the Neymar money. Real Madrid is trying to sell Bale to supplement funds for this summer's spending spree. Some reports state that Woodward refused Mourinho a new CB because of the crazy money they had just committed to Sanchez's contract. Even City has started exercising some financial prudence.

FSG are not Qatar or Abu Dhabi. Klopp has had to finance a lot of his purchases with player sales, as do many other clubs.

Google Beta User

2019-06-13 02:20:53 UTC

Post by Abubakr
Huh? I would've gone for the underdog Ajax in the final. Besides if the underdog deserves to win, then who can argue with that.

But not irrelevant from a team building point of view. We

Post by Murat Bey
You spent £75m on a defender,

Well we needed one.

And after selling Coutinho.

Post by Murat Bey
£65m on a GOALKEEPER (who, imo, isn't that much of an improvement over Ederson btw, both seem to be average keepers in my opinion),

Alisson is not spectacular like De Gea yes. He's actually a pretty "boring" goalkeeper in his playing style, but he's as solid and as safe as you get.

Post by Murat Bey
around £90m on two midfielders for further depth when you already have a team that made the CL final..

Well we needed to challenge on two fronts.

Thing is while Spurs have had an impressive net spend, they've been more settled to. They haven't had to lose say, Ali (Sterling), Kane (Suarez) and then Ericksen (Coutinho) soon after. And that's after losing Gerrard to retirement.

But certainly Spurs have been impressive too, I'm not knocking them at all. It's a strong league, although I wonder if it threatens to become a top 4 rather than a top 6, let's see how many hundreds of millions Manchester United spend, or whether Emery gets Arsenal mentally tougher.

Abubakr

2019-05-08 19:16:20 UTC