Heysel Stadium Disaster

[Yokie_joe]

With the 20th anniversary of the Heysel Stadium disaster approaching
there will be a rash of documentaries on what happened that night.
I was 11 in 1985 and remember watching the game on TV. My abiding
memories are of fans fighting with the police, the commentator saying
that Juventus fans had been killed and injured and that Boniek had been
taken down outside the box and that it was no penalty. However at no
time did I see any images of dead, dying or injured fans.
However, on Irish television last night I saw a documentary on the
Heysel disaster and I must say I was totally shocked by what I saw and
I can say positively that there is no way that game should have taken
place.
While watching the documentary all I could think of was the
similarities with the Liverpool and Forest FA cup semi final in
Hillsborough when the 98 Liverpool fans were killed. Yet that game was
cancelled but the '85 European Cup final wasn't.
The documentary contained footage (both TV and photographic) of the
events, most of which was truly disturbing. The crush was truly
horrific, I cannot begin to imagine what it must have been like in
there. The anguish on peoples faces, the corpses on the ground, injured
people gasping for air, the scenes in Italy when the coffins were
returning, the total lack of preparation by the Belgian authorities.
For example when the Liverpool fans started their first charge, the
only police to be seen were two cops running away from the Liverpool
fans.
And during the game when Platini scored the winning penalty, I assume
his reaction (celebrating ecstatically and pumping his fists in the
air) was as a result of his ignorance of the true situation. The
Juventus team celebrating after receiving the European Cup also left a
sour taste in my mouth.
If you get a chance, watch this documentary ( I think it will also be
shown on TV in the UK). And you will realise that Bill Shanklys words
ring hollow, and that at the end of the day, there are some things more
important than football.

[c***@hotmail.com]

What I've always wondered about the Heysel tragedy is if any Juve fans
were directly killed by Liverpool fans or were all the dead caused by
the panic and the crushing?

I have never seen any pictures of the fighting that went on only of
people being crushed.

[Yokie_joe]

From my understanding I don't think any Juve fans were killed directly

by Liverpool fans, but as a result of the crush.

[Alessandro Riolo]

Post by c***@hotmail.com
I have never seen any pictures of the fighting that went on only of
people being crushed.

If you would see the TV footages, you could see scenes as Liverpool
"supporters" urinating on dead ones or pickpocketing them. If British
newspapers [*] would ever care to recount the truth about that, you
would have already read that Roberto Lorentini, a doctor of 31, was
brutally killed from Liverpool "supporters" while was trying to rescue
the life of a child of 11, Andra Casula, whose father, Giovanni Casula
was laying already died few steps aside. Roberto Lorentini was then
awarded with a "medaglia d'argento al valor civile alla memoria", the
silver medal for civics merits (it is the second highest Italian award
for non militar heroism), they probably couldn't give him the gold one
only 'cause the same animals who killed him finished their job also on
the child, whose death meant that the heroical death of the doctor had
not rescued another life. And no, they didn't died under the wall or
crushed on that.
Last but not least, FYI the people laying down for the crush and the
wreckage of the wall were more than 200, as much as the day after most
Italian newspapers were reporting in 47 the number of the Italian
victims alone (than that was corrected in 32).

[*] Here is the account of the death of the Doc. Roberto Lorentini, from
the Times: "Roberto, a doctor, who had been in the process of giving
mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to another fan when more bodies fell upon
them. Neither would make it."

[steve d]

Post by Alessandro Riolo

Post by c***@hotmail.com
I have never seen any pictures of the fighting that went on only of
people being crushed.

If you would see the TV footages, you could see scenes as Liverpool
"supporters" urinating on dead ones or pickpocketing them. If British
newspapers [*] would ever care to recount the truth about that, you
would have already read that Roberto Lorentini, a doctor of 31, was
brutally killed from Liverpool "supporters" while was trying to rescue
the life of a child of 11, Andra Casula, whose father, Giovanni Casula
was laying already died few steps aside. Roberto Lorentini was then
awarded with a "medaglia d'argento al valor civile alla memoria", the
silver medal for civics merits (it is the second highest Italian award
for non militar heroism), they probably couldn't give him the gold one
only 'cause the same animals who killed him finished their job also on
the child, whose death meant that the heroical death of the doctor had
not rescued another life. And no, they didn't died under the wall or
crushed on that.

Allessandro - there has never been any TV footage or evidence of
Liverpool fans urinating on the dead, pickpocketing them or brutally
killing Dr Lorentini. These accusations arose out of one journalists
report which has since been widely discredited in Italy and elsewhere.

steve d

[Alessandro Riolo]

If British newspapers [*] would ever care to recount the truth about
that,

there has never been any TV footage or evidence of Liverpool fans
urinating
on the dead, pickpocketing them or brutally killing Dr Lorentini.
These
accusations arose out of one journalists report which has since been
widely
discredited in Italy and elsewhere.

That is what I meant about British media not telling you the truth. I
saw the TV footage with the Liverpool fan pickpocketing a corpse laying
down in the terrace, and Dr. Lorentini was awarded a medal for his
heroism. I can easily believe that if some people can kill a child of
11, they can also urinate over a dead body, the step is down, not
forward.

[scoop]

links to fotos or video please.

[steve d]

Post by Alessandro Riolo
That is what I meant about British media not telling you the truth. I
saw the TV footage with the Liverpool fan pickpocketing a corpse laying
down in the terrace, and Dr. Lorentini was awarded a medal for his
heroism. I can easily believe that if some people can kill a child of
11, they can also urinate over a dead body, the step is down, not
forward.

I've seen the footage time and time again - in the course of the last
year 7 TV companies have contacted me via our website asking for help
in making Heysel documentaries. And these are from across Europe -
Dutch, Belgian, Irish and British production companies. None of them
have this footage. Has it been destroyed? The police were given hours
of video tape to study to bring charges against fans but again nothing
was seen that you describe and all charges related to involuntary
manslaughter from those fans that charged across the terrace, causing
the Juventus and neutral fans to run, get crushed trying to escape
through a narrow exit, and then die when the wall crumbled.

It's not about the British media not telling the truth - they *hated*
Liverpool after Heysel. Everything that could be done was done to
criticise, blame, castigate and charge the fans with criminal offences.
In fact the British police had trouble persuading the Belgian
authorities to take to trial the number of fans they had identified
from video footage. Newspapers carried on their front pages pictures of
those caught on the video tapes in an attempt to identify them. The
Government did everything they could to help in this identification.

This was no British media cover up.

Four years later similar accusations were made after the Hillsborough
disaster by The Sun newspaper. Kelvin MacKenzie, then editor of The
Sun, used the front page headline 'THE TRUTH', with three
sub-headlines: 'Some fans picked pockets of victims'; 'Some fans
urinated on the brave cops'; 'Some fans beat up PC giving kiss of
life'.

The story accompanying these headlines claimed that 'drunken Liverpool
fans viciously attacked rescue workers as they tried to revive victims'
and 'police officers, firemen and ambulance crew were punched, kicked
and urinated upon'. A quote, attributed to an unnamed policeman,
claimed that a dead girl had been sexually abused and that Liverpool
fans 'were openly urinating on us and the bodies of the dead'.

All these accusations were proven to be utterly false. The police had
lied to cover up their dreadful incompetence which had caused the
disaster with the aid of a right wing newspaper which had spent the 80s
attacking the city of Liverpool. The families of those who died burnt
copies of the paper in the street. Football fans throughout the UK
joined a boycott of the newspaper - a boycott which is now estimated to
have cost the newspaper £150 million.

These are easy accusations to throw around, but without definitive
evidence they're best left unspoken as they dishonour the dead of
Heysel and obfuscate many of the other causes of the disaster.

steve d

[Robbie]

In article <***@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, steve d
graces us with a reply...

Post by Alessandro Riolo

Post by Alessandro Riolo
That is what I meant about British media not telling you the truth. I
saw the TV footage with the Liverpool fan pickpocketing a corpse

laying

Post by Alessandro Riolo
down in the terrace, and Dr. Lorentini was awarded a medal for his
heroism. I can easily believe that if some people can kill a child of
11, they can also urinate over a dead body, the step is down, not
forward.

I've seen the footage time and time again - in the course of the last
year 7 TV companies have contacted me via our website asking for help
in making Heysel documentaries. And these are from across Europe -
Dutch, Belgian, Irish and British production companies. None of them
have this footage. Has it been destroyed? The police were given hours
of video tape to study to bring charges against fans but again nothing
was seen that you describe and all charges related to involuntary
manslaughter from those fans that charged across the terrace, causing
the Juventus and neutral fans to run, get crushed trying to escape
through a narrow exit, and then die when the wall crumbled.

Just to add. The wall collapsing played no part in the deaths but in fact it
saved most of those crushed by relieving the pressure.

All those that died were those that fell and were trampled on or died of
crush injuries. They were al in a very small area and the Liverpool fans
would not have had access to their corpses.

Apart from the 39 that died there were around 580 other injuries.

[Alessandro Riolo]

.. in the course of the last year 7 TV companies have contacted me via
our website asking for help in making Heysel documentaries. And these
are from across Europe - Dutch, Belgian, Irish and British production
companies.

Just 5 minuts of googling, I found an interview with Mr. Leopoldo Lelio,
nowadays a retired bank clerk (who was incidentally saved from two
British guys, one named Jeff Conrad, from Liverpool). Mr. Lelio tells
vividly about the Hooligan attacks, the knive-stabbings on the terrace,
of a girl whose throat was severed with a broken bottle of glass:
http://www.kataweb.it/detail.jsp?channel=portale&id=894169

[steve d]

Post by Alessandro Riolo
Just 5 minuts of googling, I found an interview with Mr. Leopoldo Lelio,
nowadays a retired bank clerk (who was incidentally saved from two
British guys, one named Jeff Conrad, from Liverpool). Mr. Lelio tells
vividly about the Hooligan attacks, the knive-stabbings on the

terrace,

Post by Alessandro Riolo
http://www.kataweb.it/detail.jsp?channel=portale&id=894169

Similarly the only person stabbed in Brussels earlier that day was a
Liverpool fan, the only fan who smuggled a gun in the stadium was a
Juventus fan, 5 minutes of googling tell so vivid attacks from Juventus
fans on Liverpool fans in section Z, the beating up of a young kid in a
LFC shirt which many believe instigated the violence, the fireworks
thrown at Liverpool fans from Juventus fans in sector Z, the crumbling
concrete used as missiles and launched over the fence .....

.... we could go back to earlier in 1985 and the Supercup in Turin
where every Liverpool coach (Crowns Toppings was the company) was
attacked and had their windows broken.

steve d

[Alessandro Riolo]

.. 5 minutes of googling tell so vivid attacks from Juventus fans on
Liverpool fans in section Z, the beating up of a young kid in a LFC
shirt which many believe instigated the violence, the fireworks thrown
at Liverpool fans from Juventus fans in sector Z, the crumbling
concrete
used as missiles and launched over the fence .....

In this thread I was already called a liar, but I forgive all of you. I
see and understand how propaganda is working, I have Berlusconi's real
life example to live with. That said, apart from British media and
people influenced by that (usually Scandinavians and a few others),
everyone knows that the crumbling concrete were used as missiles from
the Liverpool hooligans, that they spearheaded their attacks with that,
that while in the V sector there were mostly hooligan type of
supporters, in the Z sector there were not ultra at all, but just common
people, who were attacked and massacred as lambs. Were people in Z
sector crushing themselves close to the external wall just with the aim
to kill themselves, or were they escaping from a worst fate?
BTW if your claim that the only "fan" who smuggled a gun in the stadium
was a Juventus fan, Mr. Leopoldo Lelio (and hundreds as him) would be a
liar. Yet, he has neither fear neither problems to say that he was saved
from two British guys (which I don't doubt you can easily believe), but
still you have problems to believe that he could see knive-stabbings on
the terrace (obviously, if only a Juve "fan" was having a gun that day,
this guy had to stab hundreds of Liverpoor martyrs that day, why you
don't build a church for them?) or that girl whose throat was severed
with a broken bottle of glass?
If so, I wouldn't call you a liar, but surely one minded would be quite
appropriate ..

[Goldmund]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:30:21 GMT, "Alessandro Riolo"

Post by Alessandro Riolo
In this thread I was already called a liar, but I forgive all of you. I
see and understand how propaganda is working, I have Berlusconi's real
life example to live with.

Alessandro, I'm afraid I saw no video with the evidence to support
what you said. I tend to believe it, but then one might say that I'm
under your propaganda.
So the best thing you can do is give links or infos to check that
evidence and avoid the usual stuff about propaganda and Berlusconi
that make you seem paranoid.

[Alessandro Riolo]

Post by Goldmund
So the best thing you can do is give links

In this thread it was first time in my life I ever heard about people
looking for video of evidences of what happened at Heysel. As I already
stated in the thread, I've a visual memory of some Liverpool hooligan
looking in the pocket of a corpse in the terrace. I never thought I
would have been requested to bring that as evidence when I saw that, so
I did not care to take note about that. It seemed me a pretty natural
scene, given the tragic context. Next time I'll do take note.

[7h@ch]

Post by Alessandro Riolo
In this thread it was first time in my life I ever heard about people
looking for video of evidences of what happened at Heysel. As I already
stated in the thread, I've a visual memory of some Liverpool hooligan
looking in the pocket of a corpse in the terrace. I never thought I
would have been requested to bring that as evidence when I saw that, so
I did not care to take note about that. It seemed me a pretty natural
scene, given the tragic context. Next time I'll do take note.

Dude, if you wanted to (implicitly or not) throw an inhumanity charge
across the table then prepare to be asked for evidents.

Besides, if my understanding of the event is correct, *that* just
doesn't make much sense. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

1. Section Z, a designated "neutral" block was located next to
Liverpool hardcores' block. Tickets were sold to Juventus, and even
some Liverpool's fans.
2. Such close proximity heightened previous existed irritance,
Liverpool's hooligans charged across the the thin fence, Section Z's
occupants ran to the far side, stampeding resulted.
3. The wall collapsed, released some of the pressure. However, some
people are still trapped by what remained of it, and were trampled.
This was when the most deads occured.
4. Belgian riot police intevened, pushing back the charges. Trambling
STILL went on due to hysteria and panick.

Hence, my natural assumption is that there was always a layer between
the chargers and those that were lying on the ground -- either the
police or those still trying to get to the other side. If that was the
case then when did the English have time and space to do what you've
"seen the footage of them doing"?

[Alessandro Riolo]

Dude, if you ..

First I'm a liar, now name calling began .. hey, I am getting a glance
at what Jews who survived the nazi have to feel when in front of the
"revisionist" .. Liverpool's hooligans did mourderously attacked poor
people, mostly Italian, but also some Belgian and of other nationalities
(I wouldn't be surprised some of them were British too), quietly waiting
to see a football match, and they did that with any possible weapon they
could find or they could bring inside. They throwed missiles, stones,
they stabbed people, they cut throats with broken bottles, and then
forced people to stampede and to crush against a wall, as much as they
went to break that. After that some of them pickpocketed lying corpse in
the terrace, while some other people (probably even some of those same
who caused that tragic event) helped to rescue others, obviously more
lucky ones. I didn't see footage of people urinating over dying corpse,
but given the context, I could easily believe that if backed from
someone present that day. Back in Liverpool or wherever you live, you
are free to believe what you wish, or what your press feed you, and to
ask for any video or any other evidence, still that will not change the
facts.
Back in the early 80's hooligans were the scum of Europe, and as late as
1990 Italian police in Roma had to club them at sight not to let them to
bring damage and ruin to everything.

[Sven Mischkies]

Post by Alessandro Riolo
Back in Liverpool or wherever you live, you
are free to believe what you wish, or what your press feed you, and to
ask for any video or any other evidence, still that will not change the
facts.

We are talking about 'back in' quite some countries now...


Ciao,
SM

[Robbie]

In article <A6a9e.1259444$***@news4.tin.it>, Alessandro Riolo graces
us with a reply...

Post by Alessandro Riolo
Back in the early 80's hooligans were the scum of Europe, and as late as
1990 Italian police in Roma had to club them at sight not to let them to
bring damage and ruin to everything.

Alessandro. Something has happened to your brain. You seem quite partial to
the deaths of Italians and seem more than happy that English people get
attacked. Very bigoted.

You are talking unadulterated bullshit.

You also seem to justify attacking people on sight because they are English.

Actually, that is what happens to English supporters whenever they travel to
Italy.

[7h@ch]

Post by Alessandro Riolo

Dude, if you ..

First I'm a liar, now name calling began ..

Name calling huh? Good job playing the victim right off the get go.

Post by Alessandro Riolo
hey, I am getting a glance
at what Jews who survived the nazi have to feel when in front of the
"revisionist" ..

Are you a Heysel's survivor? Aren't you being just a bit condescending
here?

I wasn't trying to "revise" anything. I'm still trying to establish
what really went on, and I invited you to correct what I got wrong
(with evidents, of courses). But obviously you weren't interested in
that, you seemed more interested in pontificating to heretic children.

Post by Alessandro Riolo
Liverpool's hooligans did mourderously attacked poor
people, mostly Italian, but also some Belgian and of other

nationalities

Post by Alessandro Riolo
(I wouldn't be surprised some of them were British too), quietly waiting
to see a football match, and they did that with any possible weapon they
could find or they could bring inside.

Can you be 100% positive that 100% of section Z spectators were quiet
peace loving non-provocative football supporters? Of courses, nothing
excuse what was to happen next.

Post by Alessandro Riolo
They throwed missiles, stones,
they stabbed people, they cut throats with broken bottles, and then
forced people to stampede and to crush against a wall, as much as they
went to break that.

Although not entirely as onesided as you seemed to believe.

Post by Alessandro Riolo
After that some of them pickpocketed lying corpse in
the terrace, while some other people (probably even some of those same
who caused that tragic event) helped to rescue others, obviously more
lucky ones. I didn't see footage of people urinating over dying corpse,
but given the context, I could easily believe that if backed from
someone present that day.

So what exactly did you see?

Post by Alessandro Riolo
Back in Liverpool or wherever you live, you
are free to believe what you wish, or what your press feed you, and to
ask for any video or any other evidence, still that will not change the
facts.

Facts are established by evidences. No matter how strong your
conviction is, what you've shown hitherto are at best anecdotes,
especially when they can't stand under challenges.

[steve d]

Post by ***@ch
1. Section Z, a designated "neutral" block was located next to
Liverpool hardcores' block. Tickets were sold to Juventus, and even
some Liverpool's fans.

A bit of a misnomer that - the Liverpool sections in X and Y were full
of all sorts of fans, from kids to regular fans to grandmothers. There
wasn't a hardcore group of fans like an ultras group that controlled a
section of terracing. What was pretty obvious was sections X and Y were
far too overcrowded as the authorities weren't checking tickets, there
were holes in the walls and fences which allowed fans to walk in etc
and there was crushing in the Liverpool sections.

steve d

[Sven Mischkies]

Post by Alessandro Riolo
In this thread it was first time in my life I ever heard about people
looking for video of evidences of what happened at Heysel.

We don't need no video evidence fo the attack, for general violence, for
the dying before or under the wall or for the juventino with the gun,
but to me, too, you have 'new' additions to the story, and as they are
quite extreme some evidence would be quite helpful, especially as there
was a trial afterwards and AFAIK nothing of looting or murdering
children or helpers or even murdering at all came up there (I don't
bother about the urinating bit as it fits too well to the behaviour of
English fans abroad and is not as severe as the other things)? Quoting
someone else posting in a newsgroup is not much of evidence. If you
remembered a name for that documentation or even have a link with more
information about it that would be great.



Ciao,
SM

[Alessandro Riolo]

.. you have 'new' additions to the story, and as they are quite
extreme
some evidence would be quite helpful, especially as there was a trial
afterwards and AFAIK nothing of looting or murdering children or
helpers
or even murdering at all came up there

I already quoted Dr. Roberto Lorentini was awarded the "Medaglia
d'Argento al Valor Civile alla memoria", which is the second highest
prize which can be awarded when not in war. He was awarded that 'cause
after caring other people wounded in the terrace, he noticed a laying
child (it was then discovered it was close the corpse of his own father,
laying down a few steps aside) and tryed to rescue him with artificial
respiration, and died trying that. I already quoted Mr. Leopoldo Lelio,
which is clearly talking about stabbing with knives and about a girl
with the throat severed with a broken bottle ("«Settore Z, già. Erano
gli unici biglietti disponibili. Già all´entrata, due ore prima, c´era
ressa. Iniziai a preoccuparmi quando vidi la rete di recinzione fra le
tifoserie: ridicola, sembrava quella di un pollaio. Con mio figlio mi
piazzai al centro della curva, poi ci fu il lancio di pietre (pezzi di
cemento staccato dagli spalti decrepiti, ndr), di bottiglie e infine lo
sfondamento. Presi per mano Vittorio e scappammo, non verso il muro, ma
giù in fondo alla curva. Vidi [I saw] pugni, _coltellate_ [stabbing with
knives], una ragazza sgozzata con una bottiglia rotta [a girl with the
throat severed by a broken bottle] che chiedeva pietà. .. "), which, as
many of the other Italians in the Z sector that day, was there with his
14 y.o. child. As most the the victims of the Heysel, he never charged
anyone in a tribunal, feeling enough lucky to be left with his life.

[Robbie]

In article <__79e.798085$***@news3.tin.it>, Alessandro Riolo graces
us with a reply...

Post by Alessandro Riolo

Post by Goldmund
So the best thing you can do is give links

In this thread it was first time in my life I ever heard about people
looking for video of evidences of what happened at Heysel. As I already
stated in the thread, I've a visual memory of some Liverpool hooligan
looking in the pocket of a corpse in the terrace.

Pure fantasy on your part. Why you wish to believe it is beyond me though.

[Robbie]

In article <***@4ax.com>, Goldmund graces us
with a reply...

Post by Goldmund
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:30:21 GMT, "Alessandro Riolo"

Post by Alessandro Riolo
In this thread I was already called a liar, but I forgive all of you. I
see and understand how propaganda is working, I have Berlusconi's real
life example to live with.

Alessandro, I'm afraid I saw no video with the evidence to support
what you said. I tend to believe it, but then one might say that I'm
under your propaganda.
So the best thing you can do is give links or infos to check that
evidence and avoid the usual stuff about propaganda and Berlusconi
that make you seem paranoid.

Well said.

[Robbie]

In article <hZ59e.1257525$***@news4.tin.it>, Alessandro Riolo graces
us with a reply...

Post by Alessandro Riolo

.. 5 minutes of googling tell so vivid attacks from Juventus fans on
Liverpool fans in section Z, the beating up of a young kid in a LFC
shirt which many believe instigated the violence, the fireworks thrown
at Liverpool fans from Juventus fans in sector Z, the crumbling
concrete
used as missiles and launched over the fence .....

In this thread I was already called a liar, but I forgive all of you.

Actually, if you thought I was calling you a liar, you're mistaken.

However, being ignorant as you are and regurgitating lies that were said at
the time doesn't make you look very good Alessandro. In fact, I'm very
surprised. Again, like Benny, you must have been too young to get a an
overall perception of the events.

Post by Alessandro Riolo
I
see and understand how propaganda is working, I have Berlusconi's real
life example to live with. That said, apart from British media and
people influenced by that (usually Scandinavians and a few others),
everyone knows that the crumbling concrete were used as missiles from
the Liverpool hooligans, that they spearheaded their attacks with that,
that while in the V sector there were mostly hooligan type of
supporters, in the Z sector there were not ultra at all, but just common
people, who were attacked and massacred as lambs.

In fact, there were enough of the Juve hooligans to throw the rocks back.

And nobody slaughtered anybody like Lambs - it was and remains a tragic event
due to negligence on the part of UEFA mostly for choosing that shithole to
stage a game like this.

[I Saved the Queen]

Post by Robbie
In fact, there were enough of the Juve hooligans to throw the rocks back.

What does this mean? What are you trying to suggest dear Robert Moir? That
there were enough to throw rocks back, that they did, what? Are you saying
they did throw rocks back? Are you saying they were the problems.

I love you sad sack of shit apologists like you move from minimizing the
responsibility of the perpetrators, to moving the blame to the victims.
You're a jerk.

Post by Robbie
And nobody slaughtered anybody like Lambs - it was and remains a tragic event
due to negligence on the part of UEFA mostly for choosing that shithole to
stage a game like this.

Riiiiight, and so the ones who engaged the violence are innocent because the
venue was crap?

Do you listen to your bullshit? It sounds eerily like some of the
revisionist nonesense you post to soc.culture.yugoslavia...claiming mass
graves and murders, labelling both Croats and Serbs as monsters.

You're a fucking idiot, Robert MOIR
http://www.robertmoir.co.uk/win/VirtualPC2004FAQ.html
***@gmail.com (The Erberts Real Email)

Filed By: Robert Moir
About Me

Well I'm Robert, as I'm sure you can tell from the tagline already, Rob to
my friends. I'm finally "old", having turned 30 in the year 2001. I live in
Bedford, England, which is about 60 miles north of London.

I've been in computers all my professional life except for a very brief
interlude where I worked in law enforcement. I've done time working and
programming various computers ranging from mainframes, VAX, Unix, and of
course, varying degrees of NT. I've been a sysadmin in all kinds of places
including for the government, for a large American company, for an oil
exploration company, and the education sector.

At the moment I'm a network manager for a college in a town called Luton,
where we aim to push large quantities of the Luton population through the
education sawmill and chuck them out the other end in a fit state to either
go off to a University and get a degree, or into the job market."

[7h@ch]

I think it's possible to go back and find out what exactly cause the
death of each of those 39 unfortunate people, yes? I'd assume that
records are kept of their autopsy. Now, who has the interest and
connection?

[Alessandro Riolo]

.. I'd assume that records are kept of their autopsy. ..

You obviously know nothing, about the Heysel tragedy. The autopsies were
made in an hurry, the doctors then justified themselves with the
pressure the Italian government was exerciting the get the bodies back,
and with the fact they weren't paid enough to do a good job. In truth,
AFAIK, they gave back the corpse without even bothering to sew them back
(if you wish the source, it is the book review here:
http://www.lastampa.it/_web/_RUBRICHE/Libri/inchiostrosportivo/inchiostro031215.asp).

[THEPOSH]

I to,saw the programme shown
that Benny comments about.The editing leads me to believe that there is
more evidence of what happened that tragic evening.As Benny says,the tape

goes from A,(Liverpool fans throwing rocks,etc)to C (Juve fans being
crushed).The answer to many of the disputes going on here,may well be
solved if the part B could be accessed.

[Benny]

Subject : Heysel Stadium Disaster
Similarly the only person stabbed in Brussels earlier that day was a
Liverpool fan, the only fan who smuggled a gun in the stadium was a

It was a starting pistol.

http://217.151.110.36/forums/archive/index.php/t-24483

Scroll down to the post by Ian K with the heading Part Two.

Juventus fan, 5 minutes of googling tell so vivid attacks from Juventus
fans on Liverpool fans in section Z, the beating up of a young kid in a
LFC shirt which many believe instigated the violence, the fireworks

Who else other than Terry Wilson, who was convicted of involuntary
manslaughter, made the claim about this boy? And why doesn't anyone seem
to know his name?

http://soccer-europe.com
Rss feed : http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml

[steve d]

Post by Benny
It was a starting pistol.
http://217.151.110.36/forums/archive/index.php/t-24483
Scroll down to the post by Ian K with the heading Part Two.

Benny - you're quoting a thread I posted in at least 4 times and a
forum I'm a well known contributor on - there are many conflicting and
confusing reports of what happened (and many more threads on there -
the fanzine produced a Heysel issue for the quarter final games which
is well worth reading) - the gun was thought to be a starting pistol
but it has also been claimed it was a fake. Another classic example of
confusion is the "REDS ANIMALS" banners which is often claimed to have
been made after the news of the deaths spread to the Juve Ultras (very
resourceful!) but was instead paraded before the game.

Post by Benny
Who else other than Terry Wilson, who was convicted of involuntary
manslaughter, made the claim about this boy? And why doesn't anyone seem
to know his name?

Actually have heard this for the last twenty years and could probably
whistle up 4 or 5 mates who could give you chapter and verse on it but
it shouldn't be overplayed (as the documaentary did) as it was just
part of the overall mess which initiated the problems - fights among
fans in non-segregated areas, missiles thrown from both sides etc
fireworks thrown by the Italians fans and bottles by the English etc

steve d

[William A. T. Clark]

Post by Alessandro Riolo

.. in the course of the last year 7 TV companies have contacted me via
our website asking for help in making Heysel documentaries. And these
are from across Europe - Dutch, Belgian, Irish and British production
companies.

Just 5 minuts of googling, I found an interview with Mr. Leopoldo Lelio,
nowadays a retired bank clerk (who was incidentally saved from two
British guys, one named Jeff Conrad, from Liverpool). Mr. Lelio tells
vividly about the Hooligan attacks, the knive-stabbings on the terrace,
http://www.kataweb.it/detail.jsp?channel=portale&id=894169

Well, now, let's distinguish carefully between actual evidence, as in
video (which you claim exists), and hearsay reported by a third party
whose opinions may be just as coloured by the events as yours. You don't
think that it is just possible that Mr. Lelio has his own special axe to
grind, and is allowing fantasy to run away with him?

I'd prefer the real evidence. Tell us where to find it.

William Clark

[Alessandro Riolo]

William A. T. Clark, from <***@nospamosu.edu>,
in

Post by William A. T. Clark
Well, now, let's distinguish carefully between actual evidence, as in
video (which you claim exists),

It looks I am not the only one:
http://groups.google.it/groups?hl=it&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-34,GGLD:en&selm=4rEPdD.A.DGG.CgrTCB%40idam.kicks-ass.net
(he even claims "Ho visto immagini di tifosi inglesi che urinavano su
uomini morti
a terra", which as I already told, given the context, I can easily
believe).
Unfortunately I didn't see Sfide three friday ago, so I couldn't say if
they showed the very same footage I am remembering or not. As I already
replied to Goldmund, I was not fully aware that in the Anglosaxon world
do you have this denying and minimizing attitude about what happened at
Heysel (I was having some idea about, but I was not supposing like
that), next time I'll see those footage I'll warn you and all of other
people about that.

[Robbie]

In article <Lg89e.798190$***@news3.tin.it>, Alessandro Riolo graces
us with a reply...

Post by Alessandro Riolo
Unfortunately I didn't see Sfide three friday ago, so I couldn't say if
they showed the very same footage I am remembering or not. As I already
replied to Goldmund, I was not fully aware that in the Anglosaxon world
do you have this denying and minimizing attitude about what happened at
Heysel (I was having some idea about, but I was not supposing like
that), next time I'll see those footage I'll warn you and all of other
people about that.

You sir are a fucking idiot. There is no denial or minimising in the 'Anglo-
Saxon' (whatever paranoid concept this is) world about Heysal. Hillsborough
put paid to that.

Jeeez - grow up.

[I Saved the Queen]

Post by Robbie
us with a reply...

Post by Alessandro Riolo
Unfortunately I didn't see Sfide three friday ago, so I couldn't say if
they showed the very same footage I am remembering or not. As I already
replied to Goldmund, I was not fully aware that in the Anglosaxon world
do you have this denying and minimizing attitude about what happened at
Heysel (I was having some idea about, but I was not supposing like
that), next time I'll see those footage I'll warn you and all of other
people about that.

Yet another person correctly recognizes the phenomenon of Robert Moir aka

Post by Robbie
You sir are a fucking idiot. There is no denial or minimising in the 'Anglo-
Saxon' (whatever paranoid concept this is) world about Heysal.

Hillsborough

Post by Robbie
put paid to that.
Jeeez - grow up.

This is rich coming from the master sock puppeteer.

[Roo]

I saw the TV footage with the Liverpool fan pickpocketing a corpse
laying down in the terrace.

You are a fucking liar. Now please prove me wrong.

BlueRoo

[Benny]

Subject : Heysel Stadium Disaster
That is what I meant about British media not telling you the truth. I
saw the TV footage with the Liverpool fan pickpocketing a corpse laying
down in the terrace, and Dr. Lorentini was awarded a medal for his
heroism. I can easily believe that if some people can kill a child of
11, they can also urinate over a dead body, the step is down, not
forward.

There was a 90 minute documentary on BBC2 last night about 80 minutes of
which were a complete waste of time.

27 minutes in they showed footage of the Liverpool supporters
standing next to the fence which separated them and the Juve supporters
in block Z. They were shouting abuse and flipping off the Juve
supporters. The next piece of footage showed an old women being lead
from the stadium bleeding from the head and other supporters jumping
over a wall.

A Liverpool supporter (Terry Wilson) who was convinced of involuntary
manslaughter was interviewed and claimed a boy was "getting destroyed by
Italian men" (in his original interview in 1985) and that's why they
"pull the fence down, get over there to the assistance of our
supporters" (in an interview when the program was made). No footage of
the fence being pulled down was shown, seconds of footage showing
Liverpool supporters chasing Juve supporters and the Gendarmerie down
the stands onto the track pitch while hurling objects at them were
shown. Suddenly we see a mass of Juve supporters backed up against a
wall and more extremely brief footage of Liverpool supporters a few rows
below throwing objects at them. We see more people desperately trying to
leave the stadium then footage of fans being crushed. They went from A
(Liverpool supporters facing the supporters in block Z) to C (the Juve
supporters backed up against the back wall of block Z) without B (the
fighting), they shied away from the most controversial footage.

The next footage shows the wall collapsed and people being crushed.
Again there is very brief footage of Liverpool supporters throwing
objects into block Z while this is happening. The narrator then claims :

"It wasn't the collapse of the wall that caused the 39 deaths, the
collapse actually released pressure and allowed fans trapped up against
the wall to escape. The dead died from suffocation, they lost their
balance in the pushing and shoving, fell and were trampled by the
others. "

You certainly didn't get the 'spectacle of murderous, hooligan malice'
which World Soccer referred to in a short piece on Heysel in this
month's (May 2005) issue.

http://soccer-europe.com
Rss feed : http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml

[Robbie]

In article <***@soccer-europe.com>, Benny graces us with a
reply...

Post by Benny

Subject : Heysel Stadium Disaster
That is what I meant about British media not telling you the truth. I
saw the TV footage with the Liverpool fan pickpocketing a corpse laying
down in the terrace, and Dr. Lorentini was awarded a medal for his
heroism. I can easily believe that if some people can kill a child of
11, they can also urinate over a dead body, the step is down, not
forward.

There was a 90 minute documentary on BBC2 last night about 80 minutes of
which were a complete waste of time.

Actually, I found it a very moving and emotional programme. Top quality.

The documentary on the week before was more factual if that is what you
after.

<snip>

Post by Benny
You certainly didn't get the 'spectacle of murderous, hooligan malice'
which World Soccer referred to in a short piece on Heysel in this
month's (May 2005) issue.

That's because the main focus of the programme - which was more than evident
- was why the match took place. I suggest you eat your dinner earlier in the
evening and are not half asleep as you have all the critical faculties of a
half-dead gnat.

[Benny]

Subject : Heysel Stadium Disaster
That's because the main focus of the programme - which was more than evident
- was why the match took place. I suggest you eat your dinner earlier in the
evening and are not half asleep as you have all the critical faculties of a
half-dead gnat.

The main focus of the program was three Italians re-tracing their steps
AND the reason for the match going ahead. It was not an excellent
documentary because they shied away from the most controversial footage.

http://soccer-europe.com
Rss feed : http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml

[Robbie]

In article <YZP7e.783658$***@news3.tin.it>, Alessandro Riolo graces
us with a reply...

Post by Alessandro Riolo

Post by c***@hotmail.com
I have never seen any pictures of the fighting that went on only of
people being crushed.

If you would see the TV footages, you could see scenes as Liverpool
"supporters" urinating on dead ones or pickpocketing them.

Alessandro - what evidence do you have for this? I've never heard about this
before.

Personally, I think your accusations are utter lies.

[Juan Vazquez]

Post by Yokie_joe
With the 20th anniversary of the Heysel Stadium disaster approaching
there will be a rash of documentaries on what happened that night.

(...)

Post by Yokie_joe
While watching the documentary all I could think of was the
similarities with the Liverpool and Forest FA cup semi final in
Hillsborough when the 98 Liverpool fans were killed. Yet that game was
cancelled but the '85 European Cup final wasn't.

I was really shocked that the match took place at all and I remember some
German TV channel refusing to put it on screen.

I was following the "preview" by radio, while going in my car to my
University and some one hour before kick off, we knew in Caracas, Venezuela,
that 9 Italians fans were dead. Fifteen minutes later, the radio said the
death toll was some 20 and so on.
Then I arrived at the U and watched live on TV the corpses lined by the
sideline. And the count reached the 30's.

Did the players knew what was going on ?

You figure it out.

If I in Venezuela, knew what was going on, think of the players, refs and
other people on the football technical people inside the stadium.

Was there a gigantic concealment of truth to deceive players and the public
that nothing was happening, that there were no dead people, that they were
simply injured and to recover in hospital ?

I doubt it very much.

Was fair to say that the game had to be played to avoid any further trouble
?

Don't think so.

I think this grim episode of football history showed a high degree of
insensibility of the UEFA, the Belgian authorities, the football
establishment and even of the crowd inside the ground. But I think the
masses are to bear the least responsibility.
Were the football authorities the ones to assume the decision to cancel the
match. But they decided to go on.

Sad.

JV

--
To e-mail me delete dot and substitute "_" by "s".

[Alessandro Riolo]

Post by Juan Vazquez
Did the players knew what was going on ?

They were. As many of them often recelled, they were pratically
precepted to play from the Belgian autorities, to prevent further
carnage.

[Homestar]

If something isn't done about the behaviour of Ultra hooligans in the
curva of the San Siro, italian football will have another disaster on
its hands. The Italian authorities simply haven't the balls to tackle
them. How long must each opposing side put up with the constant rain of
coins, urine, flares and mopeds coming from the upper tier?

[Robbie]

In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Yokie_joe
graces us with a reply...

Post by Yokie_joe
And during the game when Platini scored the winning penalty, I assume
his reaction (celebrating ecstatically and pumping his fists in the
air) was as a result of his ignorance of the true situation. The
Juventus team celebrating after receiving the European Cup also left a
sour taste in my mouth.

I saw an excellent documentary on BBC2 last night and Platini and Juventus
were entirely aware. However, like one of the Juve organisation said,
football makes you blind. The whole events were of such horrific magnitude
that to be fair, nobody knew what to do. The Belgian police chief decided
after a 2 and half hour meeting with all involved citing security as the
reason. Most of those needed present to reach a decision. Many of the Juve
fans knew of the deaths before the game and spent most of the time trying to
get at the Liverpool fans and fighting the police.

[Il Genio]

Post by Robbie
graces us with a reply...

Post by Yokie_joe
And during the game when Platini scored the winning penalty, I assume
his reaction (celebrating ecstatically and pumping his fists in the
air) was as a result of his ignorance of the true situation. The
Juventus team celebrating after receiving the European Cup also left a
sour taste in my mouth.

I saw an excellent documentary on BBC2 last night and Platini and Juventus
were entirely aware. However, like one of the Juve organisation said,
football makes you blind. The whole events were of such horrific magnitude
that to be fair, nobody knew what to do. The Belgian police chief decided
after a 2 and half hour meeting with all involved citing security as the
reason. Most of those needed present to reach a decision. Many of the Juve
fans knew of the deaths before the game and spent most of the time trying to
get at the Liverpool fans and fighting the police.

What was more beyond understanding are the scenes of joy in Torino just
after the game and the juventus players who lift the cup while getting
off the plane back in Italy.

[Robbie]

In article <4263f7e8$0$79458$***@news.sunsite.dk>, Il Genio graces us
with a reply...

Post by Il Genio
What was more beyond understanding are the scenes of joy in Torino just
after the game and the juventus players who lift the cup while getting
off the plane back in Italy.

Like was said, football making you blind is the only thing which makes sense
here unless you want to be unkind and cynical.

[I Saved the Queen]

Post by Robbie
graces us with a reply...

Post by Yokie_joe
And during the game when Platini scored the winning penalty, I assume
his reaction (celebrating ecstatically and pumping his fists in the
air) was as a result of his ignorance of the true situation. The
Juventus team celebrating after receiving the European Cup also left a
sour taste in my mouth.

I saw an excellent documentary on BBC2 last night and Platini and Juventus
were entirely aware. However, like one of the Juve organisation said,
football makes you blind. The whole events were of such horrific magnitude
that to be fair, nobody knew what to do. The Belgian police chief decided
after a 2 and half hour meeting with all involved citing security as the
reason. Most of those needed present to reach a decision. Many of the Juve
fans knew of the deaths before the game and spent most of the time trying to
get at the Liverpool fans and fighting the police.

This is an excellent apologist viewpoint, taking it one step further and
blaming the victims for the disaster. Much like what you do when you troll
us at soc.culture.yugoslavia huh Robert Moir?