Why has it be come fashionable to stand offside during a free kick ?

[MH]

I am sure you have all noticed this, but more and more players are
taking up an offside position just prior to free kick being taken, and
then quickly moving back onside just as the kicker makes contact with
the ball. Van Nistelrooy, among others, does this often,

I have been wondering what the value of this tactic might be.

It seems to me that there are at least two potential disadvantages:

1) even if you do legitimately get back onside, there is a chance the
linesman or ref will blow the call, being fooled by your original position.

2) you are moving away from goal and will have to change direction to
move back towards goal, making it harder to get to a low, fast delivery.

What are the advantages, other than annoying defenders ?

[p***@yahoo.com]

Post by MH
What are the advantages, other than annoying defenders ?

In the recent Scotland-US game, a Scottish attacker ended up in great
position when a US defender (Berhalter) dropped back before the free
kick was struck. As a result, he was able to hold off his marker and
score.

P

[Bob]

Post by MH
I am sure you have all noticed this, but more and more players are

Isn't it to try spreading the defense further. I'd think it's easier for the
defender to simultaneously follow the motion of the ball while covering his
man if he stands very close to the attacker (and often grabs him) as the
kicker starts running to the ball.

[RED DEVIL]

Post by Bob

Post by MH
I am sure you have all noticed this, but more and more players are

Isn't it to try spreading the defense further. I'd think it's easier for the
defender to simultaneously follow the motion of the ball while covering his
man if he stands very close to the attacker (and often grabs him) as the
kicker starts running to the ball.

The defender doesn't know what position the forward is going to
setting up from if he stands forward first. It also pushes the defence
out some.

[James Allnutt]

Post by MH
I am sure you have all noticed this, but more and more players are
taking up an offside position just prior to free kick being taken, and
then quickly moving back onside just as the kicker makes contact with
the ball. Van Nistelrooy, among others, does this often,
I have been wondering what the value of this tactic might be.
1) even if you do legitimately get back onside, there is a chance the
linesman or ref will blow the call, being fooled by your original position.

Wouldn't the linesman be wrong to do this? You are only offside if you
get the ball directly (so if you headed the freekick in, you would still
be offside). If the keeper drops the ball however, aren't you now
onside (and in a very nice position to get to the ball first) under the
new interpretation of the offside law? Even if that is not the case, I
would suggest that is the thinking of the attacker.

James

[MH]

Post by James Allnutt

Post by MH
I am sure you have all noticed this, but more and more players are
taking up an offside position just prior to free kick being taken, and
then quickly moving back onside just as the kicker makes contact with
the ball. Van Nistelrooy, among others, does this often,
I have been wondering what the value of this tactic might be.
1) even if you do legitimately get back onside, there is a chance the
linesman or ref will blow the call, being fooled by your original position.

Wouldn't the linesman be wrong to do this?

yes he'd be wrong, if you legitimately were in an onside position by the
time the kick left the kicker's foot. However, we have all seen wrong
offside decisions often enough, and it seems to me that in this case you
are "tempting" him into a wrong decision.

You are only offside if you

Post by James Allnutt
get the ball directly (so if you headed the freekick in, you would still
be offside).

No, not if you got back onside in time , which these guys actually do.

If the keeper drops the ball however, aren't you now

Post by James Allnutt
onside (and in a very nice position to get to the ball first) under the
new interpretation of the offside law?

But you are not in such a great position, because in order to get back
onside, you had to move away from goal, so whereas an attacker timing
his forward run properly would already be moving at speed towards the
goal, you would be starting to move towards goal from a standing position.

If you didn't get back onside, and the keeper fumbled the ball and you
were first to it, that falls into the grey area of the new
interpretation of the offside law, since you were certainly "seeking to
take advantage of your offside position"

Even if that is not the case, I

Post by James Allnutt
would suggest that is the thinking of the attacker.
James

[James Allnutt]

Post by MH

Post by James Allnutt

Post by MH
I am sure you have all noticed this, but more and more players are
taking up an offside position just prior to free kick being taken,
and then quickly moving back onside just as the kicker makes contact
with the ball. Van Nistelrooy, among others, does this often,
I have been wondering what the value of this tactic might be.
1) even if you do legitimately get back onside, there is a chance the
linesman or ref will blow the call, being fooled by your original position.

Wouldn't the linesman be wrong to do this?

yes he'd be wrong, if you legitimately were in an onside position by the
time the kick left the kicker's foot. However, we have all seen wrong
offside decisions often enough, and it seems to me that in this case you
are "tempting" him into a wrong decision.
You are only offside if you

No, I think you misunderestimate me...

I was saying that he would be onside (more correctly, not offside) even
if he stood behind the defenders unless the ball was played to him. If
the ball was dropped by the keeper he could score the goal. No
"returning behind the defence" required. (let's just switch "behind"
and "in front" around willy-nilly now)

This is certainly what players were doing (Bolton IIRC as one example)
when the new "interpretation" was announced. That doesn't mean it
hasn't been clarified (undone?) since, but it was certainly the way
people were playing for a time.

James

[Futbolmetrix]

Post by MH
If you didn't get back onside, and the keeper fumbled the ball and you
were first to it, that falls into the grey area of the new interpretation
of the offside law, since you were certainly "seeking to take advantage of
your offside position"

There's nothing grey about this scenario: offside, 100%, according to any
interpretation of the LOTG, old or new.

Daniele

[MH]

Post by Futbolmetrix

Post by MH
If you didn't get back onside, and the keeper fumbled the ball and you
were first to it, that falls into the grey area of the new interpretation
of the offside law, since you were certainly "seeking to take advantage of
your offside position"

There's nothing grey about this scenario: offside, 100%, according to any
interpretation of the LOTG, old or new.

I would agree with you -- but I have seen several goals scored by a
scenario similar to this eg. one by van Nistelrooy vs. the Czechs in
Euro 2004.

Post by Futbolmetrix
Daniele

[Futbolmetrix]

Post by MH
I would agree with you -- but I have seen several goals scored by a
scenario similar to this eg. one by van Nistelrooy vs. the Czechs in
Euro 2004.

No, that was a different scenario, and I agree with you that it's a grey
area in the interpretation of the rules. In the RvN versus Czech Republic
case, what happened is that he was miles offside and was walking back
towards midfield when the ball was passed from midfield to Robben(?), who
was onside, on the wing. As Robben advanced with ball, RvN changed
direction, received the pass from Robben (he was behind the line of the
ball, so onside), and slotted it in.
Let's call this case the "triangular case": A is offside when the ball is
passed from B to C, but then gets back onside, receives the ball from C and
scores. Is A's position sanctionable with a free kick for the other side, or
should the goal stand?

What you were referring to in the previous post is the case where a forward
in an offside position picks up a fumble by the goalkeeper, or a rebound off
the post, or a deflection of the original shot, and scores. That's "taking
advantage of an offside position" and is offisde according to any
interpretation of the rules. I think that FIFA even has a nice diagram
explaining this.

Daniele

[HASM]

Post by Futbolmetrix
No, that was a different scenario, and I agree with you that it's a grey
area in the interpretation of the rules.
Let's call this case the "triangular case": A is offside when the ball is
passed from B to C, but then gets back onside, receives the ball from C and
scores. Is A's position sanctionable with a free kick for the other side, or
should the goal stand?

Nothing grey about this play, except on the minds of TV commentators. Not
offside.

-- HASM

[MH]

Post by Futbolmetrix

Post by MH
I would agree with you -- but I have seen several goals scored by a
scenario similar to this eg. one by van Nistelrooy vs. the Czechs in
Euro 2004.

No, that was a different scenario, and I agree with you that it's a grey
area in the interpretation of the rules. In the RvN versus Czech Republic
case, what happened is that he was miles offside and was walking back
towards midfield when the ball was passed from midfield to Robben(?), who
was onside, on the wing. As Robben advanced with ball, RvN changed
direction

Which was certainly trying to take advantage of his offside position, no ?

, received the pass from Robben (he was behind the line of the

Post by Futbolmetrix
ball, so onside), and slotted it in.
Let's call this case the "triangular case": A is offside when the ball is
passed from B to C, but then gets back onside, receives the ball from C and
scores. Is A's position sanctionable with a free kick for the other side, or
should the goal stand?

I think the offside rule still needs some work. There should be an area
from the outsides of the six yard box, goal-line to edge of penalty
area, where, if you are in an offside position, you are offside when the
ball is passed forward. "Passive" offside shouldn't apply to players in
this location, because, let's face it they are a distraction to GK and
defence, and are most likely trying to take advantage of their offside
position no matter how hard they are pretending no to.

Post by Futbolmetrix
What you were referring to in the previous post is the case where a forward
in an offside position picks up a fumble by the goalkeeper, or a rebound off
the post, or a deflection of the original shot, and scores. That's "taking
advantage of an offside position" and is offisde according to any
interpretation of the rules. I think that FIFA even has a nice diagram
explaining this.
Daniele

[Futbolmetrix]

Post by MH
Which was certainly trying to take advantage of his offside position, no ?

Yes, but I'm not arguing in favor or against the "new" interpretation.

Post by MH
I think the offside rule still needs some work. There should be an area
from the outsides of the six yard box, goal-line to edge of penalty area,
where, if you are in an offside position, you are offside when the ball is
passed forward. "Passive" offside shouldn't apply to players in this
location, because, let's face it they are a distraction to GK and defence,
and are most likely trying to take advantage of their offside position no
matter how hard they are pretending no to.

But that wouldn't have really helped in the Van Nistelrooy case, since he
was well outside of the penalty area when the pass to Robben was made.

Other than that, I don't agree with your proposal. In general I am in favor
of referees applying their discretionary judgement in each case. Suppose
forward A is advancing towards goal diagonally from the left wing. Forward B
is in an offside position at the rightmost and topmost edge of the "offside
cone" you defined above. A shoots. B is not even close to the trajectory of
the ball.[*] I don't think that B's position should be sanctioned.

Of course it would all be much easier if you would allow video replays.

Daniele

[*] If the goalkeeper is being distracted by the position of player B, he'd
be doing a terrible job as a goalkeeper. He should be concentrating on the
player with the ball, trying to close the angle towards goal.

[Futbolmetrix]

Post by MH

Post by James Allnutt
Wouldn't the linesman be wrong to do this?

yes he'd be wrong, if you legitimately were in an onside position by the
time the kick left the kicker's foot. However, we have all seen wrong
offside decisions often enough, and it seems to me that in this case you
are "tempting" him into a wrong decision.

Here's an explanation. Linesmen are often wrong, but they are wrong
asymmetrically. They will wave the flag more often than not when a striker
*receives* the ball well in front of the line of the second to last
defender, even if he was well onside when the ball was passed. On the other
hand, they will keep the flag down more often than not if a defender has had
time to come back and put himself between the forward and the goal, even if
the forward was in an offside position at the time of the pass.

Therefore, when the free kick is taken, the forward is standing in an
offside position and is *unmarked*, while the rest of his teammates and the
defenders are all moving towards the goal for the header. As a result, when
the ball reaches the area, the forward who was offside has now plenty of
defenders between himself and the goal, but he's still unmarked.

There was a perfect example of this strategy yesterday in the
Fiorentina-Juve Coppa Italia tie. Mutu swung a free kick into the box, Del
Piero, who was hanging out at the edge of the offside line when the free
kick was taken glanced a free header towards the far post. It's not very
clear whether the ball would have gone in, but Ibrahimovic, who had
continued his run from the free kick and was now standing at the far post,
nudged it in from a meter out. The linesman raised his flag, disallowing the
goal. Now, Ibrahimovic was miles offside when Del Piero headed the ball, so
there's no question that it was the right decision. But did he raise the
flag for Ibrahimovic's position, or for Del Piero's position?

Daniele

[m***@yahoo.com]

Post by MH
I am sure you have all noticed this, but more and more players are
taking up an offside position just prior to free kick being taken, and
then quickly moving back onside just as the kicker makes contact with
the ball. Van Nistelrooy, among others, does this often,
I have been wondering what the value of this tactic might be.

Do you think that they might be trying to open space in the defense?
Alternatively, they might be decoying for a shot or a pass to another
player, and it may be helpful to have one or more defender's attention
going in one direction just as the ball is going in the other.

[MH]

Post by m***@yahoo.com

Post by MH
I am sure you have all noticed this, but more and more players are
taking up an offside position just prior to free kick being taken, and
then quickly moving back onside just as the kicker makes contact with
the ball. Van Nistelrooy, among others, does this often,
I have been wondering what the value of this tactic might be.

Do you think that they might be trying to open space in the defense?

Certainly they might, though a canny defence shouldn't fall for it.

Post by m***@yahoo.com
Alternatively, they might be decoying for a shot or a pass to another
player, and it may be helpful to have one or more defender's attention
going in one direction just as the ball is going in the other.

Also true, but does it outway the potential disadvantages ?

This is usually on free kicks that will come in as crosses.
So if you want a decoy, why would a guy who is deadly in the box
and a good header (Van N) be wasted as a decoy. OK you could argue that
a good decoy has to be plausible I suppose.

Another thing that puzzles me is why some teams (notably Liverpool)
have their best finisher (arguably) take corner kicks and free kicks
that are delivered as crosses. Are Steve Gerrard's corners really that
much better than say Xabi Alonso or Zenden or Kewell or Luis Garcia's
that they compensate for the absence of Gerrard, who is a much better
header of the ball than they are and a bigger physical presence, in the
box ?

[Gabbage]

Post by MH
Another thing that puzzles me is why some teams (notably Liverpool)
have their best finisher (arguably) take corner kicks and free kicks
that are delivered as crosses. Are Steve Gerrard's corners really that
much better than say Xabi Alonso or Zenden or Kewell or Luis Garcia's
that they compensate for the absence of Gerrard, who is a much better
header of the ball than they are and a bigger physical presence, in the
box ?

This is a thought shared by many Liverpool fans. Although I think
Gerrard is one of the best in the world at crossing from deep
positions, his corners aren't nearly as good. That isn't to say he's
bad, mind you, just that Xabi (for example) isn't noticeably worse at
taking them. Back in the 2000-2001 season when Liverpool won the UEFA
Cup, Gary MacAllister was the designated set piece man and Gerrard
scored quite a few headers from his corners. Until last season, that
was the one and only time he reached double figures in scoring. Now he
can do it since he's a much better player and his shooting is more
accurate, but without the headers he probably wouldn't have scored ten
goals four years ago.

[Gabbage]

Post by MH
What are the advantages, other than annoying defenders ?

The advantage is that it often works. Van Nistelrooy and Bolton are
famed for scoring this way.

[Matthias Mühlich]

Post by MH
I have been wondering what the value of this tactic might be.

Simple: it leads to goals. :-)

Post by MH
1) even if you do legitimately get back onside, there is a chance the
linesman or ref will blow the call, being fooled by your original position.

I don't think so. Top level refs are good and then it must be an
*active*, not passive, offside position.

Post by MH
2) you are moving away from goal and will have to change direction to
move back towards goal, making it harder to get to a low, fast
delivery.

The same direction changing problem holds for the defender (who,
additionally, cannot grab you at the shirt when you stand offside, so
the attacker is more mobile at the beginning).

Post by MH
What are the advantages, other than annoying defenders ?

Annoying the defense is something I would not underestimate.

MM