Discussion:
A top club to be relegated in Brazil?
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Mark
2023-11-14 10:07:25 UTC
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It looks likely that at least 1 of Cruzeiro, Vasco da Gama, Bahia, Santos or Internacional will get relegated this year.
Werner Pichler
2023-11-14 11:46:21 UTC
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Post by Mark
It looks likely that at least 1 of Cruzeiro, Vasco da Gama, Bahia, Santos or Internacional will get relegated this year.
Why would Bahia be a top club? Because they're owned by the Manchester City group?

Ciao,
Werner
Jesus Petry
2023-11-14 13:23:25 UTC
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Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Mark
It looks likely that at least 1 of Cruzeiro, Vasco da Gama, Bahia, Santos or Internacional will get relegated this year.
Why would Bahia be a top club? Because they're owned by the Manchester City group?
They were a member of "Clube dos 13", the group that organized a league in 1987 when CBF was out of money to do so.
They did win the first edition of a regular national club competition, in 1959, beating Pelé's Santos in the final.
But for a long time now, they don't belong as much as, for instance, Athletico Paranaense in the top tier.

Tchau!
Jesus Petry
Lléo
2023-11-16 19:30:10 UTC
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Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Mark
It looks likely that at least 1 of Cruzeiro, Vasco da Gama, Bahia, Santos
or Internacional will get relegated this year.
Why would Bahia be a top club? Because they're owned by the Manchester City group?
I agree with you that labeling them a top club is a little generous. I would
classify them as a regional power, being record winners of their state league
and of their regional cup (Copa do Nordeste, 4 times winner, joint record with
their rivals Vitória). Also, they're a popular club, used to play in front of
big crowds at Fonte Nova and, as JP said, there's some respect for the fact
that they've won nationwide honours. But grouping them with the Big 12, which
is a large enough set already, may be a bit too much.

Let's put it this way: if Northeast Brasil was an independent country, Bahia
would have been up there as its top club, or hovering among the top at least.
In Actual Brasil, though, that bar ends up being set a little higher.

I think the main reason for that is economical. A sort of "accident of birth",
if you will. The Northeastern region, where they hail from, was for centuries
amongst the poorest regions of Latin America. And although things have improved
significantly over there in the last few decades, they still lie some way behind
the richer South and Southeast (ie, the home of the Big 12) in financial terms.
It is a decisive disadvantage for them, even though their football culture is
arguably just as strong as that of the richer regions.

I don't think that being owned by the City group will necessarily bridge that
gap, since other clubs in the South/Southeast are also going down a similar
road (ahem). Well, we'll see what happens on that front.


Best regards,

Lléo
Werner Pichler
2023-11-17 04:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lléo
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Mark
It looks likely that at least 1 of Cruzeiro, Vasco da Gama, Bahia, Santos
or Internacional will get relegated this year.
Why would Bahia be a top club? Because they're owned by the Manchester City group?
I agree with you that labeling them a top club is a little generous. I would
classify them as a regional power, being record winners of their state league
and of their regional cup (Copa do Nordeste, 4 times winner, joint record with
their rivals Vitória). Also, they're a popular club, used to play in front of
big crowds at Fonte Nova and, as JP said, there's some respect for the fact
that they've won nationwide honours. But grouping them with the Big 12, which
is a large enough set already, may be a bit too much.
Let's put it this way: if Northeast Brasil was an independent country, Bahia
would have been up there as its top club, or hovering among the top at least.
In Actual Brasil, though, that bar ends up being set a little higher.
I think the main reason for that is economical. A sort of "accident of birth",
if you will. The Northeastern region, where they hail from, was for centuries
amongst the poorest regions of Latin America. And although things have improved
significantly over there in the last few decades, they still lie some way behind
the richer South and Southeast (ie, the home of the Big 12) in financial terms.
It is a decisive disadvantage for them, even though their football culture is
arguably just as strong as that of the richer regions.
I don't think that being owned by the City group will necessarily bridge that
gap, since other clubs in the South/Southeast are also going down a similar
road (ahem). Well, we'll see what happens on that front.
So just to keep tabs, what's the list?

Botafogo (John Textor - Lyon/Crystal Palace/Molenbeek)
Bragantino (Red Bull - Leipzig/Salzburg/New York)
Bahia (City Group)
Vasco (777 - Genoa, Standard Liège, probably soon Everton)

Anybody else?

BTW is it just me or are there certain similarities between Everton and Vasco :)


Ciao,
Werner
Lléo
2023-11-17 20:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Lléo
I don't think that being owned by the City group will necessarily bridge that
gap, since other clubs in the South/Southeast are also going down a similar
road (ahem). Well, we'll see what happens on that front.
So just to keep tabs, what's the list?
Botafogo (John Textor - Lyon/Crystal Palace/Molenbeek)
Bragantino (Red Bull - Leipzig/Salzburg/New York)
Bahia (City Group)
Vasco (777 - Genoa, Standard Liège, probably soon Everton)
IIRC 777 also has Red Star Paris (atm leading the French Championnat National, their
third level league) and Hertha Berlin (midtable in 2.Bundesliga).
Post by Werner Pichler
Anybody else?
Cruzeiro (Ronaldo - owner of a controlling share of Valladolid)
Atlético Mineiro (investors formed a company to manage the football part of the
club, I don't think they sold it to any foreign group, or whether they plan to)
Post by Werner Pichler
BTW is it just me or are there certain similarities between Everton and Vasco :)
What would these be? :-) Beyond 777 investment, I think I could name two:

"greatness in the past" - not as remote in our case, I'd argue, but then I'm
biased; and

"recurrent relegation troubles" - "recurrent" might be too strong, it seems it's
been this season and the past two or so. On this front, I got to concede they have
the edge because they actually succeeded in avoding the drop. So far.


--
Lléo
Werner Pichler
2024-05-24 18:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lléo
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Lléo
I don't think that being owned by the City group will necessarily bridge that
gap, since other clubs in the South/Southeast are also going down a similar
road (ahem). Well, we'll see what happens on that front.
So just to keep tabs, what's the list?
Botafogo (John Textor - Lyon/Crystal Palace/Molenbeek)
Bragantino (Red Bull - Leipzig/Salzburg/New York)
Bahia (City Group)
Vasco (777 - Genoa, Standard Liège, probably soon Everton)
IIRC 777 also has Red Star Paris (atm leading the French Championnat National, their
third level league) and Hertha Berlin (midtable in 2.Bundesliga).
Erm... so what's happening there?


Ciao,
Werner
Lléo
2024-05-30 18:49:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Lléo
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Lléo
I don't think that being owned by the City group will necessarily bridge that
gap, since other clubs in the South/Southeast are also going down a similar
road (ahem). Well, we'll see what happens on that front.
So just to keep tabs, what's the list?
Botafogo (John Textor - Lyon/Crystal Palace/Molenbeek)
Bragantino (Red Bull - Leipzig/Salzburg/New York)
Bahia (City Group)
Vasco (777 - Genoa, Standard Liège, probably soon Everton)
IIRC 777 also has Red Star Paris (atm leading the French Championnat National, their
third level league) and Hertha Berlin (midtable in 2.Bundesliga).
Erm... so what's happening there?
That's a good question. Wish I could figure it out.

Basically, the company (Vasco SAF) that runs Vasco's football is owned
70% by 777 and 30% by the club. A couple of weeks ago the club went to
the courts and got an injunction giving them the control of the company.
The main argument was around reports of financial instability by 777,
which could lead to a scenario where the SAF's shares in 777's hands
could be eventually used as collateral to pay their debts, handing the
company's control to someone else. 777 got to keep, though, the shares
they already paid for (which was 30% of the SAF - so, in effect, the
70-30 proportion has been sort of "reversed").

We all thought that the injunction would be overturned in a couple of
days, but not only it still stands, 777 also had a couple of appeals
turned down. As far as I know, that's where we stand.

It is also thought that the club, now headed by Pedrinho (a former
player, formed by the club and Libertadores winner in 1998), already has
other suitors lined up to buy the SAF's shares and become the new
investor. How is that going to happen, though, I don't know.


Best regards,

Lléo

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