Discussion:
Trivia question
(too old to reply)
MH
2018-10-14 18:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries. Can you name them without looking it up ?

Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Jesper Lauridsen
2018-10-14 20:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries. Can you name them without looking it up ?
Mourinho is the easy one. So far I've only managed to find a bunch of 3-league
guys.
Post by MH
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Werner Pichler
2018-10-14 20:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries. Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
An obvious one (for me) is Happel - Netherlands (Feyenoord), Belgium (Brugge), Germany (HSV),
and Austria (Tirol).

Ciao,
Werner
a***@hotmail.com
2018-10-15 04:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries. Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Mourinho
Ancelotti
Louis van Gaal?
Roy Hodgson? (long shot, but he's coached 500 different teams)
a***@hotmail.com
2018-10-15 04:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesper Lauridsen
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries. Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Mourinho
Correct
Post by Jesper Lauridsen
Ancelotti
Correct
Post by Jesper Lauridsen
Louis van Gaal?
Close but no cigar. Though he did win it with 4 different teams (Spain, Germany, Netherlands x2)
Post by Jesper Lauridsen
Roy Hodgson? (long shot, but he's coached 500 different teams)
LOL at myself!
Werner Pichler
2018-10-15 07:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Post by Jesper Lauridsen
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries. Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Mourinho
Correct
Post by Jesper Lauridsen
Ancelotti
Correct
Post by Jesper Lauridsen
Louis van Gaal?
Trapattoni! Who knew about Benfica?

- Italy (Juventus x6, Inter)
- Germany (Bayern 1997)
- Portugal (Benfica 2005)
- Austria (Salzburg 2007)


Ciao,
Werner
Futbolmetrix
2018-10-15 11:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries.  Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Mourinho and Ancelotti were obvious (even though, if you count only
legitimate titles, Mou doesn't make the cut). Has Ancelotti done it in
five? Or did he never win the league at Real?

Trap, I should have known, but I too had forgotten about Benfica.

Happel, probably would have guessed that one eventually.

Ottmar Hitzfeld? naahh...
Bela Guttman? hmmm... maybe
Futbolmetrix
2018-10-15 11:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries.  Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Mourinho and Ancelotti were obvious (even though, if you count only
legitimate titles, Mou doesn't make the cut). Has Ancelotti done it in
five? Or did he never win the league at Real?
Nope. Lots of other honors, but not La Liga.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Trap, I should have known, but I too had forgotten about Benfica.
Happel, probably would have guessed that one eventually.
Ottmar Hitzfeld? naahh...
Not even close.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Bela Guttman? hmmm... maybe
If you stretch the definition bit: Hungary and Portugal, a Paulista
state championship, and a Uruguayan title (in which he apparently
started the season but did not finish it)

But I think the key is to look outside of the big European leagues.
Werner Pichler
2018-10-15 12:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries.  Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Mourinho and Ancelotti were obvious (even though, if you count only
legitimate titles, Mou doesn't make the cut). Has Ancelotti done it in
five? Or did he never win the league at Real?
Nope. Lots of other honors, but not La Liga.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Trap, I should have known, but I too had forgotten about Benfica.
Happel, probably would have guessed that one eventually.
Ottmar Hitzfeld? naahh...
Not even close.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Bela Guttman? hmmm... maybe
If you stretch the definition bit: Hungary and Portugal, a Paulista
state championship, and a Uruguayan title (in which he apparently
started the season but did not finish it)
But I think the key is to look outside of the big European leagues.
OK, so I found the remaining two through googling. For one of them you indeed
need to take a non-European league into account (3 in Europe, 2 in Asia).
Michael has mentioned him recently, perhaps influenced by his own trivia
question.

The other one was a surprise to me, and might actually be the best of the lot -
league titles in 4 different European countries are undisputed, and in two more
leagues the situation is a bit muddier but he seems to have coached the title
winning team at least for the majority of the season.


Ciao,
Werner
MH
2018-10-15 17:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries.  Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Mourinho and Ancelotti were obvious (even though, if you count only
legitimate titles, Mou doesn't make the cut). Has Ancelotti done it in
five? Or did he never win the league at Real?
Nope. Lots of other honors, but not La Liga.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Trap, I should have known, but I too had forgotten about Benfica.
Happel, probably would have guessed that one eventually.
Ottmar Hitzfeld? naahh...
Not even close.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Bela Guttman? hmmm... maybe
If you stretch the definition bit: Hungary and Portugal, a Paulista
state championship, and a Uruguayan title (in which he apparently
started the season but did not finish it)
But I think the key is to look outside of the big European leagues.
OK, so I found the remaining two through googling. For one of them you indeed
need to take a non-European league into account (3 in Europe, 2 in Asia).
Michael has mentioned him recently, perhaps influenced by his own trivia
question.
Actually it was the other way around. I was looking him up to see what
he was up to, and if he was free, and the Wikipedia article mentioned
his feat of having won titles in multiple countries, shared with only 5
others
Post by Werner Pichler
The other one was a surprise to me, and might actually be the best of the lot -
league titles in 4 different European countries are undisputed, and in two more
leagues the situation is a bit muddier but he seems to have coached the title
winning team at least for the majority of the season.
Ciao,
Werner
Futbolmetrix
2018-10-15 19:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner Pichler
OK, so I found the remaining two through googling. For one of them you indeed
need to take a non-European league into account (3 in Europe, 2 in Asia).
Michael has mentioned him recently, perhaps influenced by his own trivia
question.
The other one was a surprise to me, and might actually be the best of the lot -
league titles in 4 different European countries are undisputed, and in two more
leagues the situation is a bit muddier but he seems to have coached the title
winning team at least for the majority of the season.
So [spoiler alert]
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.Gerets and Ivic.
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
anders t
2018-10-15 19:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
.Gerets and Ivic.
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
You now have a responsibility to make it right. Yes, you do. Really. I mean
it. Sort of.
--
Manchester United FC - CHAMPIONS
Latest: England '13 (20th) Europa '17, UEFA '08, World '08
Jesus Petry
2018-10-15 19:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by anders t
Post by Futbolmetrix
.Gerets and Ivic.
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
You now have a responsibility to make it right. Yes, you do. Really. I mean
it. Sort of.
Well...

Was the Paulista League important then?
- Yes, very much.

Was it the National League?
- No, not by any stretch of imagination.

Tchau!
Jesus Petry
Futbolmetrix
2018-10-15 19:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesus Petry
Post by anders t
Post by Futbolmetrix
.Gerets and Ivic.
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
You now have a responsibility to make it right. Yes, you do. Really. I mean
it. Sort of.
Well...
Was the Paulista League important then?
- Yes, very much.
Was it the National League?
- No, not by any stretch of imagination.
Of course not, but that's mostly because of the pretty arbitrary
accidents of history that make some entities independent nations and
others not.

Current population:
State of Sao Paulo: 44 mil
Uruguay: 3.4 million

Also, if the English League counts as a national championship, why not
the State championships in Brazil, pre-Brasileirao?
Jesus Petry
2018-10-15 20:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Jesus Petry
Post by anders t
Post by Futbolmetrix
.Gerets and Ivic.
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
You now have a responsibility to make it right. Yes, you do. Really. I mean
it. Sort of.
Well...
Was the Paulista League important then?
- Yes, very much.
Was it the National League?
- No, not by any stretch of imagination.
Of course not, but that's mostly because of the pretty arbitrary
accidents of history that make some entities independent nations and
others not.
State of Sao Paulo: 44 mil
Uruguay: 3.4 million
Also, if the English League counts as a national championship, why not
the State championships in Brazil, pre-Brasileirao?
Hmmm... It would suit my team well in terms of silverware...

Tchau!
Jesus Petry
Werner Pichler
2018-10-16 09:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
But even if you count the Paulista League, he hasn't really won in Uruguay, so
it's still just three.


Ciao,
Werner
Futbolmetrix
2018-10-16 14:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Futbolmetrix
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
But even if you count the Paulista League, he hasn't really won in Uruguay, so
it's still just three.
But if Ivic is credited with winning the French league in 1991-92, when
he was replaced midway through the season by Raymond Goethals ("Ivić won
seven top flight championships (three in Yugoslavia and one each in the
Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal and France); six national cups (four in
Yugoslavia and one each in Spain and Portugal); a UEFA Super Cup and an
Intercontinental Cup), then Guttman should also be credited with winning
the Uruguayan league in 1962 and Serie A in 1955.

Not only is wikipedia wrong, it is also inconsistent!
Werner Pichler
2018-10-16 14:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Futbolmetrix
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
But even if you count the Paulista League, he hasn't really won in Uruguay, so
it's still just three.
But if Ivic is credited with winning the French league in 1991-92, when
he was replaced midway through the season by Raymond Goethals ("Ivić won
seven top flight championships (three in Yugoslavia and one each in the
Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal and France); six national cups (four in
Yugoslavia and one each in Spain and Portugal); a UEFA Super Cup and an
Intercontinental Cup), then Guttman should also be credited with winning
the Uruguayan league in 1962 and Serie A in 1955.
Not only is wikipedia wrong, it is also inconsistent!
Yes, German Wikipedia e.g. doesn't credit Ivić with the French League, and
instead counts the Greek title in 1986 (something English wiki categorically
excludes: 'never won the league title in Greece', perhaps written by a
disgruntled fan). But even if you exclude both (as one probably should)*, Ivić
still has undisputed four titles in four leagues, unlike Guttmann.

Ciao,
Werner


*although it begs the question: if a player who plays a certain (small) number
of matches is usually awarded a winner's medal, why not a manager who's been
there half a year?
MH
2018-10-16 16:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Werner Pichler
Post by Futbolmetrix
But given the criteria used, I think Guttman should be added to the
list. Wikipedia is wrong.
But even if you count the Paulista League, he hasn't really won in Uruguay, so
it's still just three.
But if Ivic is credited with winning the French league in 1991-92, when
he was replaced midway through the season by Raymond Goethals ("Ivić won
seven top flight championships (three in Yugoslavia and one each in the
Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal and France); six national cups (four in
Yugoslavia and one each in Spain and Portugal); a UEFA Super Cup and an
Intercontinental Cup), then Guttman should also be credited with winning
the Uruguayan league in 1962 and Serie A in 1955.
Not only is wikipedia wrong, it is also inconsistent!
Yes, German Wikipedia e.g. doesn't credit Ivić with the French League, and
instead counts the Greek title in 1986 (something English wiki categorically
excludes: 'never won the league title in Greece', perhaps written by a
disgruntled fan). But even if you exclude both (as one probably should)*, Ivić
still has undisputed four titles in four leagues, unlike Guttmann.
Ciao,
Werner
*although it begs the question: if a player who plays a certain (small) number
of matches is usually awarded a winner's medal, why not a manager who's been
there half a year?
Maybe there should be formal rules on who is the "manager of record" for
a given championship, just as in baseball there is protocol for
determining who the pitchers of record are, and who is the winning (and
losing) pitcher. Normally requires 5 innings for a starting pitcher, so
with a formula similar to that, Ivic's Marseille season would not count,
even though they were off to a flying start, 8-4-1, that I suspect would
have had them in first place to stay (is there a way of checking that?).
Futbolmetrix
2018-10-15 14:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
If you stretch the definition bit: Hungary and Portugal, a Paulista
state championship, and a Uruguayan title (in which he apparently
started the season but did not finish it)
The Paulista state championship should definitely count, as there was no
Brasileirao at the time. It's the Uruguayan title that's a bit more iffy.

English wikipedia says that he started the 1953 season at the helm of
Penarol, but didn't finish it.

Spanish wikipedia says that he led Penarol to the title in 1962.
a***@hotmail.com
2018-10-15 15:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Futbolmetrix
If you stretch the definition bit: Hungary and Portugal, a Paulista
state championship, and a Uruguayan title (in which he apparently
started the season but did not finish it)
The Paulista state championship should definitely count, as there was no
Brasileirao at the time. It's the Uruguayan title that's a bit more iffy.
English wikipedia says that he started the 1953 season at the helm of
Penarol, but didn't finish it.
Spanish wikipedia says that he led Penarol to the title in 1962.
I never heard of Guttman, so looked him up. Forget all this title business, the best part by far is "the curse of Béla Guttmann":

After the 1962 European Cup Final, Guttmann approached the Benfica board of directors and asked for a pay rise.[17] However, despite the success he had brought the club, he was turned down.[18] On leaving Benfica, he allegedly cursed the club, declaring, "Not in a hundred years from now will Benfica ever be European champions".

Benfica have gone on to lose all eight of their subsequent European finals, including five European Cup finals (1963, 1965, 1968, 1988, and 1990), and three UEFA Cup/UEFA Europa League finals (1983, 2013 and 2014).[20][21] Before the 1990 final, played in Vienna (city where Guttmann was buried), Eusébio prayed at his grave and asked for the (alleged) curse to be broken.[22]"
Werner Pichler
2018-10-15 15:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Futbolmetrix
If you stretch the definition bit: Hungary and Portugal, a Paulista
state championship, and a Uruguayan title (in which he apparently
started the season but did not finish it)
The Paulista state championship should definitely count, as there was no
Brasileirao at the time. It's the Uruguayan title that's a bit more iffy.
English wikipedia says that he started the 1953 season at the helm of
Penarol, but didn't finish it.
Spanish wikipedia says that he led Penarol to the title in 1962.
This article says he didn't:

https://www.theblizzard.co.uk/article/thwarted-revolutionary


Ciao,
Werner
Werner Pichler
2018-10-15 15:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Futbolmetrix
If you stretch the definition bit: Hungary and Portugal, a Paulista
state championship, and a Uruguayan title (in which he apparently
started the season but did not finish it)
The Paulista state championship should definitely count, as there was no
Brasileirao at the time. It's the Uruguayan title that's a bit more iffy.
English wikipedia says that he started the 1953 season at the helm of
Penarol, but didn't finish it.
That must be a mistake. In 1953 he was Milan coach. In 1954-55 he also started
the season there, was fired after 19 matches (while sitting at the top of the
table), and Milan subsequently won the title (much as Peñarol did in 1962).

Guttmann wasn't the easiest of persons.


Ciao,
Werner
Post by Futbolmetrix
Spanish wikipedia says that he led Penarol to the title in 1962.
Futbolmetrix
2018-10-15 16:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner Pichler
That must be a mistake. In 1953 he was Milan coach. In 1954-55 he also started
the season there, was fired after 19 matches (while sitting at the top of the
table), and Milan subsequently won the title (much as Peñarol did in 1962).
F*ck.

He obviously cursed the wrong team.
Futbolmetrix
2018-12-09 14:41:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by MH
Apparently there are six managers/coaches/trainers (whatever they get
called in various countries) who have won at least four league
championships (highest level in each country) in at least four
countries. Can you name them without looking it up ?
Which one won titles in the most countries ?
Tata Martino is now at three (Cerro Porten~o in Paraguay, Newell's in Argentina, and yesterday Atlanta United in MLS). If only he had won at Barca in 2013-2014, he could have become a four-countries three-continent winner...
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