Discussion:
What, no European Super League thread?
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Real Mardin
2018-11-04 18:00:10 UTC
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So if reports are to be believed, <https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/nov/02/five-english-clubs-named-in-super-league-plan-chelsea-manchester-city-united-arsenal-liverpool> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46078651> the long mooted European Super League may soon be a reality.

The plan is for 11 founding teams with guaranteed membership for 20 years. These would be supported by 5 guest teams to make a 16 team competition with a group stage and knockout round.

This all sounds remarkably similar to Euroleague Basketball, which also has 11 members with long term licenses, with the remaining 5 spots allocated on a season by season basis. The Guardian article linked above suggests a second division is being considered. This is also something Euroleague Basketball does, it runs the EuroCup as its second tier competition. Even the proposal to register the football Super League in Spain mirrors Euroleague Basketball being based in Barcelona.


The alleged 11 founding teams are:


AC Milan

Arsenal

Barcelona

Bayern Munich

Chelsea

Juventus

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

Paris St Germain

Real Madrid


The initial five guest teams are alleged to be:

Atletico de Madrid

Borussia Dortmund

Internazionale

Marseille

Roma


What, then, would be the impact on UEFA competitions should this Super League get off the ground? Should UEFA prevent Super League teams from competing in its competitions, the remarkable similarity of this proposal to Euroleague Basketball allows to take a glimpse into the future. In basketball, having the richest, best supported and most successful teams effectively cordoned off in either the Euroleague or EuroCup has left the FIBA (World Basketball's governing body) Champions League as a third tier tournament contested by champions of the more middle-ranking nations and mid-table sides from the better ranked nations. Could you imagine the last eight of the UEFA Champions League being Red Bull Salzburg, Girona, AEK Athens, Everton, Young Boys, Torino, Red Star Belgrade and SC Freiburg? Would it be sustainable?


MR
anders t
2018-11-04 18:25:04 UTC
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Post by Real Mardin
Could you imagine the last eight of the UEFA Champions League being Red Bull Salzburg, Girona, AEK Athens, Everton, Young Boys, Torino, Red Star Belgrade and SC Freiburg?
No, I can't. Östersund, AIK, and Malmö FF should be there.
--
Manchester United FC - CHAMPIONS
Latest: England '13 (20th) Europa '17, UEFA '08, World '08
Werner Pichler
2018-11-04 19:39:25 UTC
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Post by Real Mardin
So if reports are to be believed,
<https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/nov/02/five-english-clubs-named-in-super-league-plan-chelsea-manchester-city-united-arsenal-liverpool>
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46078651> the long mooted European
Super League may soon be a reality.
The plan is for 11 founding teams with guaranteed membership for 20 years.
These would be supported by 5 guest teams to make a 16 team competition
with a group stage and knockout round.
This all sounds remarkably similar to Euroleague Basketball, which also
has 11 members with long term licenses, with the remaining 5 spots
allocated on a season by season basis. The Guardian article linked above
suggests a second division is being considered. This is also something
Euroleague Basketball does, it runs the EuroCup as its second tier
competition. Even the proposal to register the football Super League in
Spain mirrors Euroleague Basketball being based in Barcelona.
Not going to happen. The window of opportunity for such a league probably
closed fifteen years ago. UEFA has managed to do what FIBA failed to
accomplish, create a brand with worldwide appeal while at the same time
catering to the wishes of the big clubs just enough they didn't do what e.g.
the big clubs in rugby did and break away.

Plus, there's always the threat of excluding any player participating in a
breakaway league from playing in national teams, and so from what's still
the biggest stage in World Football, the World Cup (and also Euro and Copa).

I believe that UEFA will gladly find ways to make the fat clubs fatter
(that's what the last CL 'reform' was all about) but they won't allow them
to escape their gilded cage.

And they will find allies should it come down to a fight. Why should
e.g. Inter acquiesce to such a scheme that sees Milan as 'regular' and
themselves as 'guests'? Why should Atlético, why should Dortmund?


Ciao,
Werner
Futbolmetrix
2018-11-04 23:19:06 UTC
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Post by Werner Pichler
Not going to happen.
I wouldn't be so sure. So far the big clubs have been brandishing the
threat of breaking away for quite some time, using that to extract more
concessions from UEFA. What is to say that at some point they won't just
find it optimal to turn their threats into action?
Post by Werner Pichler
Plus, there's always the threat of excluding any player participating in a
breakaway league from playing in national teams, and so from what's still
the biggest stage in World Football, the World Cup (and also Euro and Copa).
Yes, but would FIFA want to do that? Sounds like a non-credible threat.
Post by Werner Pichler
I believe that UEFA will gladly find ways to make the fat clubs fatter
(that's what the last CL 'reform' was all about) but they won't allow them
to escape their gilded cage.
And they will find allies should it come down to a fight. Why should
e.g. Inter acquiesce to such a scheme that sees Milan as 'regular' and
themselves as 'guests'? Why should Atlético, why should Dortmund?
They probably won't. The question is, will they have enough political
and financial power to stop it?
Post by Werner Pichler
Ciao,
Werner
d***@gmail.com
2018-11-06 03:00:26 UTC
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Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Werner Pichler
Not going to happen.
I wouldn't be so sure. So far the big clubs have been brandishing the
threat of breaking away for quite some time, using that to extract more
concessions from UEFA. What is to say that at some point they won't just
find it optimal to turn their threats into action?
I'm thinking it's going to happen and has to happen.

I mean, at what point would teams just get sick of propping up the Crystal Palaces, Schalke 04's, Parmas, et. al. of the world?
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Werner Pichler
Plus, there's always the threat of excluding any player participating in a
breakaway league from playing in national teams, and so from what's still
the biggest stage in World Football, the World Cup (and also Euro and Copa).
Yes, but would FIFA want to do that? Sounds like a non-credible threat.
They may be wanting to change all that. And the question then becomes whether you might end up with a breakaway attempt, long overdue against the hopelessly-corrupt FIFA.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Werner Pichler
I believe that UEFA will gladly find ways to make the fat clubs fatter
(that's what the last CL 'reform' was all about) but they won't allow them
to escape their gilded cage.
And they will find allies should it come down to a fight. Why should
e.g. Inter acquiesce to such a scheme that sees Milan as 'regular' and
themselves as 'guests'? Why should Atlético, why should Dortmund?
They probably won't. The question is, will they have enough political
and financial power to stop it?
Will it even matter, especially as the CL seems to always boil down to the same teams?

Mike
Futbolmetrix
2018-11-04 23:11:07 UTC
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Post by Real Mardin
What, then, would be the impact on UEFA competitions should this Super League get off the ground? Should UEFA prevent Super League teams from competing in its competitions, the remarkable similarity of this proposal to Euroleague Basketball allows to take a glimpse into the future. In basketball, having the richest, best supported and most successful teams effectively cordoned off in either the Euroleague or EuroCup has left the FIBA (World Basketball's governing body) Champions League as a third tier tournament contested by champions of the more middle-ranking nations and mid-table sides from the better ranked nations. Could you imagine the last eight of the UEFA Champions League being Red Bull Salzburg, Girona, AEK Athens, Everton, Young Boys, Torino, Red Star Belgrade and SC Freiburg? Would it be sustainable?
Hm... if it's really just 16 teams, then the remaining league would be
pretty similar to the current EL. It would be more like Sevilla, Napoli
and Spurs rather than Girona, Torino and Everton.

Not sure what to think of this. The knee-jerk reaction is to think that
this is a terrible idea, it excludes a big chunk of Europe from ever
being able to compete with the big boys. Then again, what's the point of
getting to the CL group stages if you're there just to get thumped by
the Barcelonas and PSGs of the world?
Real Mardin
2018-11-05 22:09:51 UTC
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Post by Futbolmetrix
Hm... if it's really just 16 teams, then the remaining league would be
pretty similar to the current EL. It would be more like Sevilla, Napoli
and Spurs rather than Girona, Torino and Everton.
If it's just the richest 16 to be extracted then you're still left with quite a watchable Champions League - arguably more competitive and open than the current incarnation for the absence of the "undefeatables". However, the Guardian article refers to plans for a "Super League 2" which would presumably also take away Napoli, Sevilla, Valencia, Porto, Tottenham, Ajax, PSV, Benfica, Sporting and other teams of this level. That leaves the Champions League struggling for quality.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Not sure what to think of this. The knee-jerk reaction is to think that
this is a terrible idea, it excludes a big chunk of Europe from ever
being able to compete with the big boys. Then again, what's the point of
getting to the CL group stages if you're there just to get thumped by
the Barcelonas and PSGs of the world?
I used to think a European Super League would be a terrible thing for the reasons you've mentioned. However, years of watching national champions lose by four or five goals to super rich teams who only finished third or fourth in their national league has changed my mind. I'd be happy to see the biggest and richest 16 fight it out amongst themselves. The basketball Euroleague (which by planning or coincidence mirrors the set up of the Super League) is actually rather watchable, although there is an argument to be had that it's diminished the quality of domestic league basketball.


RM
Werner Pichler
2018-11-07 11:07:36 UTC
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Post by Real Mardin
Post by Futbolmetrix
Hm... if it's really just 16 teams, then the remaining league would be
pretty similar to the current EL. It would be more like Sevilla, Napoli
and Spurs rather than Girona, Torino and Everton.
If it's just the richest 16 to be extracted then you're still left with quite
a watchable Champions League - arguably more competitive and open than the
current incarnation for the absence of the "undefeatables".
Basically what already is the Europa League.
Post by Real Mardin
However, the Guardian article refers to plans for a "Super League 2" which
would presumably also take away Napoli, Sevilla, Valencia, Porto, Tottenham,
Ajax, PSV, Benfica, Sporting and other teams of this level. That leaves the
Champions League struggling for quality.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Not sure what to think of this. The knee-jerk reaction is to think that
this is a terrible idea, it excludes a big chunk of Europe from ever
being able to compete with the big boys. Then again, what's the point of
getting to the CL group stages if you're there just to get thumped by
the Barcelonas and PSGs of the world?
I used to think a European Super League would be a terrible thing for the
reasons you've mentioned. However, years of watching national champions lose
by four or five goals to super rich teams who only finished third or fourth
in their national league has changed my mind. I'd be happy to see the biggest
and richest 16 fight it out amongst themselves.
But then there's also this issue: these so-called Super Clubs are only Super
Clubs exactly because they regularly dish out these wallopings. In a European
Super League with a franchise system logically some of these supposed big teams
would suddenly find themselves at the losing end - e.g. I can't see Milan being
currently competitive in such an environment.

For how many years could that go on before participation would actually become
detrimental for a club like Milan? I mean, noone wants to be the Detroit Lions,
right?

Ciao,
Werner
Real Mardin
2018-11-07 22:19:54 UTC
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Post by Werner Pichler
But then there's also this issue: these so-called Super Clubs are only Super
Clubs exactly because they regularly dish out these wallopings. In a European
Super League with a franchise system logically some of these supposed big teams
would suddenly find themselves at the losing end - e.g. I can't see Milan being
currently competitive in such an environment.
For how many years could that go on before participation would actually become
detrimental for a club like Milan? I mean, noone wants to be the Detroit Lions,
right?
Ciao,
Werner
That's a good point. I'm surprised they want to grant the licenses for 20 seasons. That's a long time for somebody to be Detroit. It's a also a long commitment should a team suddenly suffer an economic crisis. 5 year licenses would have mitigated this risk.

RM
Mark
2018-11-06 10:26:07 UTC
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Post by Real Mardin
So if reports are to be believed, <https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/nov/02/five-english-clubs-named-in-super-league-plan-chelsea-manchester-city-united-arsenal-liverpool> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46078651> the long mooted European Super League may soon be a reality.
The plan is for 11 founding teams with guaranteed membership for 20 years. These would be supported by 5 guest teams to make a 16 team competition with a group stage and knockout round.
This all sounds remarkably similar to Euroleague Basketball, which also has 11 members with long term licenses, with the remaining 5 spots allocated on a season by season basis. The Guardian article linked above suggests a second division is being considered. This is also something Euroleague Basketball does, it runs the EuroCup as its second tier competition. Even the proposal to register the football Super League in Spain mirrors Euroleague Basketball being based in Barcelona.
AC Milan
Arsenal
Barcelona
Bayern Munich
Chelsea
Juventus
Liverpool
Manchester City
Manchester United
Paris St Germain
Real Madrid
Atletico de Madrid
Borussia Dortmund
Internazionale
Marseille
Roma
What, then, would be the impact on UEFA competitions should this Super League get off the ground? Should UEFA prevent Super League teams from competing in its competitions, the remarkable similarity of this proposal to Euroleague Basketball allows to take a glimpse into the future. In basketball, having the richest, best supported and most successful teams effectively cordoned off in either the Euroleague or EuroCup has left the FIBA (World Basketball's governing body) Champions League as a third tier tournament contested by champions of the more middle-ranking nations and mid-table sides from the better ranked nations. Could you imagine the last eight of the UEFA Champions League being Red Bull Salzburg, Girona, AEK Athens, Everton, Young Boys, Torino, Red Star Belgrade and SC Freiburg? Would it be sustainable?
MR
Maybe it would be a good thing. The super-rich clubs that are more interested in making money than actually winning trophies finally get kicked out of UEFA, leaving the real football to teams that are actually interested in the trophies rather than the money. The Champions League and World Club Championship etc would actually be competitive again, and hopefully the public would lose interest in the clubs whose only interest is money.

An international super league, where teams were invited rather than qualifying for it, has already been tried. Flamengo were attracting crowds of 2,000-4,000 to the Maracana, which at the time I think was still the largest football stadium in the World. Why would the European Super League be any more likely to be succesful than the Copa Mercosur, which only lasted 4 years?
a***@hotmail.com
2018-11-09 18:01:37 UTC
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Post by Mark
Post by Real Mardin
So if reports are to be believed, <https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/nov/02/five-english-clubs-named-in-super-league-plan-chelsea-manchester-city-united-arsenal-liverpool> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46078651> the long mooted European Super League may soon be a reality.
The plan is for 11 founding teams with guaranteed membership for 20 years. These would be supported by 5 guest teams to make a 16 team competition with a group stage and knockout round.
This all sounds remarkably similar to Euroleague Basketball, which also has 11 members with long term licenses, with the remaining 5 spots allocated on a season by season basis. The Guardian article linked above suggests a second division is being considered. This is also something Euroleague Basketball does, it runs the EuroCup as its second tier competition. Even the proposal to register the football Super League in Spain mirrors Euroleague Basketball being based in Barcelona.
AC Milan
Arsenal
Barcelona
Bayern Munich
Chelsea
Juventus
Liverpool
Manchester City
Manchester United
Paris St Germain
Real Madrid
Atletico de Madrid
Borussia Dortmund
Internazionale
Marseille
Roma
What, then, would be the impact on UEFA competitions should this Super League get off the ground? Should UEFA prevent Super League teams from competing in its competitions, the remarkable similarity of this proposal to Euroleague Basketball allows to take a glimpse into the future. In basketball, having the richest, best supported and most successful teams effectively cordoned off in either the Euroleague or EuroCup has left the FIBA (World Basketball's governing body) Champions League as a third tier tournament contested by champions of the more middle-ranking nations and mid-table sides from the better ranked nations. Could you imagine the last eight of the UEFA Champions League being Red Bull Salzburg, Girona, AEK Athens, Everton, Young Boys, Torino, Red Star Belgrade and SC Freiburg? Would it be sustainable?
MR
Maybe it would be a good thing. The super-rich clubs that are more interested in making money than actually winning trophies finally get kicked out of UEFA, leaving the real football to teams that are actually interested in the trophies rather than the money.
There are so many falsehoods in the statement above that I don't even know where to start. But I'll try:

1) Most of these clubs do not value money over trophies. If anything, PSG and Man City pump massive amounts of private capital simply to win big prizes. Most of these clubs would give their left arm to win the UCL. You need to stop recycling lazy cliches.

2) They are not getting kicked out of UEFA, they are kicking UEFA out of them (assuming these reports are true).

3) Everyone is interested in money, even your cute little hipster clubs. Those who can acquire it do, just like in the real non-footballing world. Give Colo Colo or Viktoria Plzen a billion dollars to make them into a super club and they will lick the sole of your feet out of gratitude.
Mark
2018-11-11 09:43:12 UTC
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Post by a***@hotmail.com
Post by Mark
Post by Real Mardin
So if reports are to be believed, <https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/nov/02/five-english-clubs-named-in-super-league-plan-chelsea-manchester-city-united-arsenal-liverpool> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46078651> the long mooted European Super League may soon be a reality.
The plan is for 11 founding teams with guaranteed membership for 20 years. These would be supported by 5 guest teams to make a 16 team competition with a group stage and knockout round.
This all sounds remarkably similar to Euroleague Basketball, which also has 11 members with long term licenses, with the remaining 5 spots allocated on a season by season basis. The Guardian article linked above suggests a second division is being considered. This is also something Euroleague Basketball does, it runs the EuroCup as its second tier competition. Even the proposal to register the football Super League in Spain mirrors Euroleague Basketball being based in Barcelona.
AC Milan
Arsenal
Barcelona
Bayern Munich
Chelsea
Juventus
Liverpool
Manchester City
Manchester United
Paris St Germain
Real Madrid
Atletico de Madrid
Borussia Dortmund
Internazionale
Marseille
Roma
What, then, would be the impact on UEFA competitions should this Super League get off the ground? Should UEFA prevent Super League teams from competing in its competitions, the remarkable similarity of this proposal to Euroleague Basketball allows to take a glimpse into the future. In basketball, having the richest, best supported and most successful teams effectively cordoned off in either the Euroleague or EuroCup has left the FIBA (World Basketball's governing body) Champions League as a third tier tournament contested by champions of the more middle-ranking nations and mid-table sides from the better ranked nations. Could you imagine the last eight of the UEFA Champions League being Red Bull Salzburg, Girona, AEK Athens, Everton, Young Boys, Torino, Red Star Belgrade and SC Freiburg? Would it be sustainable?
MR
Maybe it would be a good thing. The super-rich clubs that are more interested in making money than actually winning trophies finally get kicked out of UEFA, leaving the real football to teams that are actually interested in the trophies rather than the money.
1) Most of these clubs do not value money over trophies. If anything, PSG and Man City pump massive amounts of private capital simply to win big prizes. Most of these clubs would give their left arm to win the UCL. You need to stop recycling lazy cliches.
There's evidence that some of these clubs value money over trophies. Whether it's most of them is debatable.
Post by a***@hotmail.com
2) They are not getting kicked out of UEFA, they are kicking UEFA out of them (assuming these reports are true).
Are they planning to play in the Super League instead of the existing European club tournaments then? If so, maybe you've got a point. I was anticipating UEFA kicking them out for breaking away kind of thing.
Post by a***@hotmail.com
3) Everyone is interested in money, even your cute little hipster clubs. Those who can acquire it do, just like in the real non-footballing world. Give Colo Colo or Viktoria Plzen a billion dollars to make them into a super club and they will lick the sole of your feet out of gratitude.
Unlike ,say, Real Madrid, Colo Colo would be interested in money as a means to an end, ie to build a good team and win the Chilean League Championship and the Copa Libertadores and the World Club Championship. Some of the European clubs seem more interested in making money for the sake of the president and the directors of the club, rather than to help the club build a competitive team and win meaningful titles.
Abubakr
2018-11-14 17:04:17 UTC
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The directors of clubs are not only interested in lining their own pockets; they have to consider Messi, Ronaldo and others' astronomical wages as well.
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