Discussion:
Is tiki taka dead?
(too old to reply)
z***@gmail.com
2014-07-22 15:12:26 UTC
Permalink
And what style of game did the Germans play against Brazil in the semi final? Was that not tiki taka?
Graf
2014-07-22 15:32:34 UTC
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Post by z***@gmail.com
And what style of game did the Germans play against Brazil in the semi final? Was that not tiki taka?
No.

Not even remotely.
Abubakr
2014-07-22 16:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graf
Post by z***@gmail.com
And what style of game did the Germans play against Brazil in the
semi final? Was that not tiki taka?
No.
Not even remotely.
Of course it was.

Ultra high defensive line? Check.

Aggressive pressing in opponents half in order to win the ball back in
dangerous areas and create dangerous opportunities of your own team? Check.

One-touch-passing to evade the opponent's own press? Check.

Germany was like the Barca of a couple of years ago in attack and the Barca
of last year in defence, only they did luck out in that no-one managed to
punish them properly at the back.
z***@gmail.com
2014-07-22 16:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by z***@gmail.com
And what style of game did the Germans play against Brazil in the
semi final? Was that not tiki taka?
No.
Not even remotely.
Of course it was.
Ultra high defensive line? Check.
Aggressive pressing in opponents half in order to win the ball back in
dangerous areas and create dangerous opportunities of your own team? Check.
One-touch-passing to evade the opponent's own press? Check.
Germany was like the Barca of a couple of years ago in attack and the Barca
of last year in defence, only they did luck out in that no-one managed to
punish them properly at the back.
But there is one difference, isn't it? Spain/Barca in their prime tiki taka days did not score much... let alone win 7-1 against a top team. Germany did. Spain won the world cup in 2010 scoring only 8 goals and allowing only 2. Germany won World Cup 2014 scoring 18 goals and allowing 4 goals.

So Germany of 2014 played a lot more risky game than Spain in 2014.
Graf
2014-07-22 17:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@gmail.com
But there is one difference, isn't it? Spain/Barca in their prime tiki taka days did not score much... let alone win 7-1 against a top team. Germany did. Spain won the world cup in 2010 scoring only 8 goals and allowing only 2. Germany won World Cup 2014 scoring 18 goals and allowing 4 goals.
So Germany of 2014 played a lot more risky game than Spain in 2014.
This is certainly true.

I wouldn't go as far as take Germany's seven goals against Brazil as a typical example, though. Most teams, regardless of how conservative their set-up, will be more adventurous if the opposition indicate goals will come easily. Let's not forget, Spain beat Italy 4-0 in the Euro 2012 final.
z***@gmail.com
2014-07-22 19:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graf
Post by z***@gmail.com
But there is one difference, isn't it? Spain/Barca in their prime tiki taka days did not score much... let alone win 7-1 against a top team. Germany did. Spain won the world cup in 2010 scoring only 8 goals and allowing only 2. Germany won World Cup 2014 scoring 18 goals and allowing 4 goals.
So Germany of 2014 played a lot more risky game than Spain in 2014.
This is certainly true.
I wouldn't go as far as take Germany's seven goals against Brazil as a typical example, though.
Yeah how about Germany in 2010 when they scored 4 goals against Australia, England and Argentina. And Germany in 2014 when they scored 4 goals against Portugal.
Post by Graf
Most teams, regardless of how conservative their set-up, will be more adventurous if the opposition indicate goals will come easily. Let's not forget, Spain beat Italy 4-0 in the Euro 2012 final.
That was an outlier. I don't think Spain or Germany have a conservative set up at all. They are way too attacking in fact. The only difference is that Germany have players who can shoot and play a little long balls and also use their height advantage to head balls in. This hardly happens with Spain.
Abubakr
2014-07-23 01:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@gmail.com
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by z***@gmail.com
And what style of game did the Germans play against Brazil in the
semi final? Was that not tiki taka?
No.
Not even remotely.
Of course it was.
Ultra high defensive line? Check.
Aggressive pressing in opponents half in order to win the ball back in
dangerous areas and create dangerous opportunities of your own team? Check.
One-touch-passing to evade the opponent's own press? Check.
Germany was like the Barca of a couple of years ago in attack and the Barca
of last year in defence, only they did luck out in that no-one managed to
punish them properly at the back.
But there is one difference, isn't it? Spain/Barca in their prime tiki taka days did not score much... let alone win 7-1 against a top team. Germany did. Spain won the world cup in 2010 scoring only 8 goals and allowing only 2. Germany won World Cup 2014 scoring 18 goals and allowing 4 goals.
So Germany of 2014 played a lot more risky game than Spain in 2014.
tiki taka is not just Spain...Barcelona are the originators of the style, and they score a lot!

The major difference between Germany and Barcelona of a few years ago is Barcelona NEVER got out-possessed, whereas this Germany occasionally does. In this respect they're more comparable to recent Barca teams.

Also, they have retained some residual counter-attacking DNA from previous iterations of Loew's sides, and the set-piece prowess due to their height.
Sven Mischkies
2014-07-23 07:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
But there is one difference, isn't it? Spain/Barca in their prime tiki
taka days did not score much... let alone win 7-1 against a top team.
Germany did. Spain won the world cup in 2010 scoring only 8 goals and
allowing only 2. Germany won World Cup 2014 scoring 18 goals and
allowing 4 goals.
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
So Germany of 2014 played a lot more risky game than Spain in 2014.
tiki taka is not just Spain...Barcelona are the originators of the style,
and they score a lot!
The major difference between Germany and Barcelona of a few years ago is
Barcelona NEVER got out-possessed, whereas this Germany occasionally does.
In this respect they're more comparable to recent Barca teams.
Also, they have retained some residual counter-attacking DNA from previous
iterations of Loew's sides, and the set-piece prowess due to their height.
Basically Spain and Barca have only plan A - outpass the opponent and
profit from gaps in the defence.

Germany has three plans - A outpass the opponent and profit from gaps in
the defence, B counter attack, C set pieces.

Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.


Btw: 'Out-possessed' is a very weird construct as it suggests that the
team with less possession was somehow at fault for not getting more of
it, while in reality it's usually the result of a tactical choice.


Ciao,
SM
--
Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.
anders t
2014-07-23 09:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Mischkies
Btw: 'Out-possessed' is a very weird construct as it suggests that the
team with less possession was somehow at fault for not getting more of
it, while in reality it's usually the result of a tactical choice.
I wouldn't say "usually", though.
--
Manchester United FC - CHAMPIONS
Latest: England 2013 (20th), UEFA 2008, World 2009
z***@gmail.com
2014-07-23 13:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@gmail.com
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
But there is one difference, isn't it? Spain/Barca in their prime tiki
taka days did not score much... let alone win 7-1 against a top team.
Germany did. Spain won the world cup in 2010 scoring only 8 goals and
allowing only 2. Germany won World Cup 2014 scoring 18 goals and
allowing 4 goals.
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
So Germany of 2014 played a lot more risky game than Spain in 2014.
tiki taka is not just Spain...Barcelona are the originators of the style,
and they score a lot!
The major difference between Germany and Barcelona of a few years ago is
Barcelona NEVER got out-possessed, whereas this Germany occasionally does.
In this respect they're more comparable to recent Barca teams.
Also, they have retained some residual counter-attacking DNA from previous
iterations of Loew's sides, and the set-piece prowess due to their height.
Basically Spain and Barca have only plan A - outpass the opponent and
profit from gaps in the defence.
Germany has three plans - A outpass the opponent and profit from gaps in
the defence, B counter attack, C set pieces.
Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.
Btw: 'Out-possessed' is a very weird construct as it suggests that the
team with less possession was somehow at fault for not getting more of
it, while in reality it's usually the result of a tactical choice.
Germany was out possessed against Brazil, yet scored 7 goals. Shows how meaningless this stat is.
Post by z***@gmail.com
Ciao,
SM
--
Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.
Abubakr
2014-07-23 15:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@gmail.com
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
But there is one difference, isn't it? Spain/Barca in their prime tiki
taka days did not score much... let alone win 7-1 against a top team.
Germany did. Spain won the world cup in 2010 scoring only 8 goals and
allowing only 2. Germany won World Cup 2014 scoring 18 goals and
allowing 4 goals.
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
So Germany of 2014 played a lot more risky game than Spain in 2014.
tiki taka is not just Spain...Barcelona are the originators of the
style, and they score a lot!
The major difference between Germany and Barcelona of a few years ago
is Barcelona NEVER got out-possessed, whereas this Germany
occasionally does. In this respect they're more comparable to recent
Barca teams.
Also, they have retained some residual counter-attacking DNA from
previous iterations of Loew's sides, and the set-piece prowess due to
their height.
Basically Spain and Barca have only plan A - outpass the opponent and
profit from gaps in the defence.
Germany has three plans - A outpass the opponent and profit from gaps
in the defence, B counter attack, C set pieces.
Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.
Btw: 'Out-possessed' is a very weird construct as it suggests that the
team with less possession was somehow at fault for not getting more of
it, while in reality it's usually the result of a tactical choice.
That's more the case of last couple of years, when Barcelona was much
less competent in recovering the ball very quickly.

Prior to that most teams didn't really have much choice with regards to
possessing the ball for extended periods. First, Barca or Spain were too
good at keeping it, second they recovered it very quickly when they
didn't have it.
Sven Mischkies
2014-07-23 15:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
But there is one difference, isn't it? Spain/Barca in their prime tiki
taka days did not score much... let alone win 7-1 against a top team.
Germany did. Spain won the world cup in 2010 scoring only 8 goals and
allowing only 2. Germany won World Cup 2014 scoring 18 goals and
allowing 4 goals.
Post by Abubakr
Post by z***@gmail.com
So Germany of 2014 played a lot more risky game than Spain in 2014.
tiki taka is not just Spain...Barcelona are the originators of the
style, and they score a lot!
The major difference between Germany and Barcelona of a few years ago
is Barcelona NEVER got out-possessed, whereas this Germany
occasionally does. In this respect they're more comparable to recent
Barca teams.
Also, they have retained some residual counter-attacking DNA from
previous iterations of Loew's sides, and the set-piece prowess due to
their height.
Basically Spain and Barca have only plan A - outpass the opponent and
profit from gaps in the defence.
Germany has three plans - A outpass the opponent and profit from gaps
in the defence, B counter attack, C set pieces.
Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.
Btw: 'Out-possessed' is a very weird construct as it suggests that the
team with less possession was somehow at fault for not getting more of
it, while in reality it's usually the result of a tactical choice.
That's more the case of last couple of years, when Barcelona was much
less competent in recovering the ball very quickly.
Prior to that most teams didn't really have much choice with regards to
possessing the ball for extended periods. First, Barca or Spain were too
good at keeping it, second they recovered it very quickly when they
didn't have it.
Which part of my post are you referring to? If it's the last part about
possession: There's more to football than tiki taka, it was a general
statement.


Ciao,
SM
--
Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.
Abubakr
2014-07-23 15:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Mischkies
Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.
Your just giddy on recent success.

The Barca/Spain was systemic to the bone and it swept all before it for 7
or 8 years.
Sven Mischkies
2014-07-23 15:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Post by Sven Mischkies
Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.
Your just giddy on recent success.
How is the above statement wrong? There is no implication that one is
better than the other, there are drawbacks to both (lack of plan B vs
less efficient implementation of plan A).


Ciao,
SM
--
Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.
Abubakr
2014-07-23 21:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Mischkies
Post by Abubakr
Post by Sven Mischkies
Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.
Your just giddy on recent success.
How is the above statement wrong? There is no implication that one is
better than the other, there are drawbacks to both (lack of plan B vs
less efficient implementation of plan A).
I read your post differently.
zeebjii
2014-07-24 14:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Post by Sven Mischkies
Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.
Your just giddy on recent success.
The Barca/Spain was systemic to the bone and it swept all before it for 7
or 8 years.
3-4 years at the most.
Abubakr
2014-07-24 23:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by zeebjii
Post by Abubakr
Post by Sven Mischkies
Spain and Barca are demonstration of a theoretical model, Germany
incorporate this theoretical model into an overall system.
Your just giddy on recent success.
The Barca/Spain was systemic to the bone and it swept all before it for 7
or 8 years.
3-4 years at the most.
2007-13 how many trophies did they win?
Graf
2014-07-22 16:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Graf wrote in
Post by Graf
Post by z***@gmail.com
And what style of game did the Germans play against Brazil in the
semi final? Was that not tiki taka?
No.
Not even remotely.
Of course it was.
Ultra high defensive line? Check.
Aggressive pressing in opponents half in order to win the ball back in
dangerous areas and create dangerous opportunities of your own team? Check.
One-touch-passing to evade the opponent's own press? Check.
Germany was like the Barca of a couple of years ago in attack and the Barca
of last year in defence, only they did luck out in that no-one managed to
punish them properly at the back.
Many teams use high pressing as a means of initiating sudden attacks - would you claim they all play tika taka too? Chile - do they play tika taka? Liverpool - do they play tiki taka?

And if you think the purpose of Barca's one-touch passing was to "evade the opponent", you've completely misunderstood what tiki taka was about.
Abubakr
2014-07-23 01:31:01 UTC
Permalink
And if you think the purpose of Barca's one-touch passing was to "evade the >opponent", you've completely misunderstood what tiki taka was about.
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one-touch passing is then?
Graf
2014-07-24 15:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
And if you think the purpose of Barca's one-touch passing was to "evade the >opponent", you've completely misunderstood what tiki taka was about.
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one-touch passing is then?
Watch how the creative hub of Barcelona in its prime (Iniesta and Messi), far from trying to evade the press, actually invite the pressing player onto them in order to disrupt the shape and discipline of the opposition's defensive unit.

The fluidity within their team in shifting positions (dropping deeper, pushing up, coming inside) allows them to create the angles and find the spaces to exploit this breach
Abubakr
2014-07-24 23:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
And if you think the purpose of Barca's one-touch passing was to "evade the >opponent", you've completely misunderstood what tiki taka was about.
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one-touch passing is then?
Watch how the creative hub of Barcelona in its prime (Iniesta and Messi), far from trying to evade the press, actually invite the pressing player onto them in order to disrupt the shape and discipline of the opposition's defensive unit.
The fluidity within their team in shifting positions (dropping deeper, pushing up, coming inside) allows them to create the angles and find the spaces to exploit this breach
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one touch passing is?
Graf
2014-07-27 00:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
And if you think the purpose of Barca's one-touch passing was to "evade > > > > the opponent", you've completely misunderstood what tiki taka was about.
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one-touch passing is then?
Watch how the creative hub of Barcelona in its prime (Iniesta and Messi),
far from trying to evade the press, actually invite the pressing player
onto them in order to disrupt the shape and discipline of the opposition's
defensive unit.
The fluidity within their team in shifting positions (dropping deeper, pushing up, coming inside) allows them to create the angles and find the spaces to exploit this breach
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one touch passing is?
"...in order to disrupt the shape and discipline of the opposition's defensive unit.... allows them to create the angles and find the spaces to exploit this breach"

I also explained how it had nothing to do with "evading the opponent", in case you missed that too.
Abubakr
2014-07-27 01:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
And if you think the purpose of Barca's one-touch passing was
to "evade > > > > the opponent", you've completely
misunderstood what tiki taka was about.
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one-touch passing is then?
Watch how the creative hub of Barcelona in its prime (Iniesta and
Messi), far from trying to evade the press, actually invite the
pressing player onto them in order to disrupt the shape and
discipline of the opposition's defensive unit.
The fluidity within their team in shifting positions (dropping
deeper, pushing up, coming inside) allows them to create the angles
and find the spaces to exploit this breach
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one touch passing is?
"...in order to disrupt the shape and discipline of the opposition's
defensive unit.... allows them to create the angles and find the
spaces to exploit this breach"
That's simply saying "evading" in a very verbose roundabout way.
Post by Graf
I also explained how it had nothing to do with "evading the opponent",
in case you missed that too.
Have you seen Barcelona actually practicing one-touch passing?
Graf
2014-07-27 01:56:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one touch passing is?
"...in order to disrupt the shape and discipline of the opposition's
defensive unit.... allows them to create the angles and find the
spaces to exploit this breach"
That's simply saying "evading" in a very verbose roundabout way.
Quote: "Watch how the creative hub, far from trying to evade the press, actually invite the pressing player onto them"
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
I also explained how it had nothing to do with "evading the opponent",
in case you missed that too.
Have you seen Barcelona actually practicing one-touch passing?
Nope, and neither have you. I've simply studied their system in their matches. It's amazing what you can learn from actually watching games.
Abubakr
2014-07-27 05:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one touch passing is?
"...in order to disrupt the shape and discipline of the
opposition's defensive unit.... allows them to create the angles
and find the spaces to exploit this breach"
That's simply saying "evading" in a very verbose roundabout way.
Quote: "Watch how the creative hub, far from trying to evade the
press, actually invite the pressing player onto them"
Of course they invite - then break the press with one touch passing.

That's what good technical players have always done, Barca just
systemiticised the whole process into their overall opproach.
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
I also explained how it had nothing to do with "evading the
opponent", in case you missed that too.
Have you seen Barcelona actually practicing one-touch passing?
Nope, and neither have you. I've simply studied their system in their
matches. It's amazing what you can learn from actually watching games.
I have seen them practice. It's not a secret. You just don't understand
it.
Graf
2014-07-27 13:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Can you explain to me what the purpose of one touch passing is?
"...in order to disrupt the shape and discipline of the
opposition's defensive unit.... allows them to create the angles
and find the spaces to exploit this breach"
That's simply saying "evading" in a very verbose roundabout way.
Quote: "Watch how the creative hub, far from trying to evade the
press, actually invite the pressing player onto them"
Of course they invite - then break the press with one touch passing.
I've never before heard a definition of "evades" that means exactly the same as "invites". Whoever compiled that dictionary you're using doesn't speak English too well. Invest in a decent one would be my advice to you.
Post by Abubakr
Post by Graf
Post by Abubakr
Have you seen Barcelona actually practicing one-touch passing?
Nope, and neither have you. I've simply studied their system in their
matches. It's amazing what you can learn from actually watching games.
I have seen them practice. It's not a secret. You just don't understand
it.
You mean that YouTube video? Holy shit, please tell me you're basing your understanding of what "tiki taka" is based on a YT clip.

(FYI: that exercise would be pointless unless you have someone pressuring you. Even non-professional teams include that exercise as part of their normal schedule. Just because Barca do it, doesn't make it tiki taka. HTH)
Abubakr
2014-07-27 20:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Graf, son, I know your are arse is still sore from a few months ago but you
aren't regaining any credibility this way. Give it up.
Graf
2014-07-27 21:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abubakr
Graf, son, I know your are arse is still sore from a few months ago but you
aren't regaining any credibility this way. Give it up.
No idea what you're on about. And, as this thread has clearly shown, neither do you. Maybe someone who bases his understanding of a tactical system on a YT clip of a standard training exercise should be more concerned with his own credibility.
Abubakr
2014-07-23 01:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Many teams use high pressing as a means of initiating sudden attacks - would >you >claim they all play tika taka too? Chile - do they play tika taka? >Liverpool - do >they play tiki taka?
When all the elements are combined in the style, yes.

Liverpool don't press high up the pitch generally, they press near the half-way line.
z***@gmail.com
2014-07-22 16:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graf
Post by z***@gmail.com
And what style of game did the Germans play against Brazil in the semi final? Was that not tiki taka?
No.
Not even remotely.
Come on... there is some similarity. There is a lot of passing in the German game.... just like tiki taka. But the Germans shoot more than the Spaniards do. And they are also more dangerous in set pieces because they are taller overall.
Graf
2014-07-22 16:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@gmail.com
Come on... there is some similarity. There is a lot of passing in the German game.... just like tiki taka. But the Germans shoot more than the Spaniards do. And they are also more dangerous in set pieces because they are taller overall.
I'd agree they maintain possession, but that's hardly unique to Germany. Germany's game is more about quick transitions (and, consequently, taking more risks) than tiki taka allows.
z***@gmail.com
2014-07-22 20:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graf
Post by z***@gmail.com
Come on... there is some similarity. There is a lot of passing in the German game.... just like tiki taka. But the Germans shoot more than the Spaniards do. And they are also more dangerous in set pieces because they are taller overall.
I'd agree they maintain possession, but that's hardly unique to Germany. Germany's game is more about quick transitions (and, consequently, taking more risks) than tiki taka allows.
Read this article. Speaks of German version of tiki taka.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/germany-takes-tiki-taka-level-24491371

Still, Germany tops the tournament in completed passes at 3,421, nearly three times the average. Philipp Lahm with 458 passes and Kroos with 443 lead the tournament. Spain completed 4,773 passes in winning the 2010 title.
mehdi
2014-07-23 00:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@gmail.com
Read this article. Speaks of German version of tiki taka.
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/germany-takes-tiki-taka-level-24491371

Just a case of jumping on the bandwagon and not knowing history. Germany
don't play anything resembling tika taka. Tika taka is not about pace or
athleticism or playing direct - which are classic German traits.
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mehdi
2014-07-23 00:45:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@gmail.com
And what style of game did the Germans play against Brazil in the semi final? Was that not tiki taka?
No. Tika taka is basically passing the ball to death in midfield trying
to draw players out of position then playing combinations to get
through. Germany play like they have always played. They are a direct,
technical side.
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