Discussion:
U21: Italian domination
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Goldmund
2004-06-08 21:09:09 UTC
Permalink
The story goes on: 5th title in the last 7 competitions!

All the finals won, lost only one semis on golden goal and once in
preliminary rounds.
Only Giampaglia missed the title in 1998, all the other trainers got
it: Maldini (92,94,96) Tardelli (00) and Gentile (04 after 02 semis)
anders t
2004-06-08 21:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
The story goes on: 5th title in the last 7 competitions!
All the finals won, lost only one semis on golden goal and once in
preliminary rounds.
Only Giampaglia missed the title in 1998, all the other trainers got
it: Maldini (92,94,96) Tardelli (00) and Gentile (04 after 02 semis)
As long as your style makes you choke at the Men's level all is fine.
--
On a dirty worn-out sidewalk sits a mother with a baby
In her vale of tears she sees no rainbow
And someone's singing from a window
In the mission of the sacred heart
Goldmund
2004-06-08 21:30:40 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:11:34 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
The story goes on: 5th title in the last 7 competitions!
All the finals won, lost only one semis on golden goal and once in
preliminary rounds.
Only Giampaglia missed the title in 1998, all the other trainers got
it: Maldini (92,94,96) Tardelli (00) and Gentile (04 after 02 semis)
As long as your style makes you choke at the Men's level all is fine.
A bit bitter cos of the result of Sweden...?
Futbolmetrix
2004-06-08 22:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by anders t
As long as your style makes you choke at the Men's level all is fine.
I'll turn your sentence around: as long as we keep on choking at senior
level, there's nothing much to be proud about. And you do have a point about
style, but I don't think it has much to do with choking.

Daniele
Goldmund
2004-06-08 21:49:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 00:39:42 +0200, "Futbolmetrix"
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by anders t
As long as your style makes you choke at the Men's level all is fine.
I'll turn your sentence around: as long as we keep on choking at senior
level, there's nothing much to be proud about. And you do have a point about
style, but I don't think it has much to do with choking.
Daniele
Actually I think nothing of this has something to do with the fact
that our under 21 won the title.
Goldmund
2004-06-08 21:48:08 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:11:34 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
As long as your style makes you choke at the Men's level all is fine.
Since 1990 Italy was ousted 3 times from WC at penalties and one on
golden goal. In EC ousted once on golden goal and one with the big
contribution of missing a penalty.
So we may say the only time Italy chocked recently is in 1992.

(of course the defeats on penalties and golden goal came with the
likes of Brasil, France, Argentina, Germany, so the defeat in 2002
against Korea may be defined a failure, but I'd prefer not to talk
again about that match and the disgraced refs and linesmen of
Korea-Japan 2002)
Futbolmetrix
2004-06-08 23:15:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
Since 1990 Italy was ousted 3 times from WC at penalties and one on
golden goal.
Isn't that exactly the point? Out of our last 4 WC eliminations, how many
times did we really try to win? By this I mean pressing high in midfield,
attacking with 6 or 7 men as a rule and not an exception, trying to dominate
ball possession, etc. Against Argentina in 1990, and that only because we
were playing at home. In 1994 and 1998 we never seriously tried to go beyond
0-0 and penalties. In 2002 we choked: we had several good chances to close
the match and choked, and that's got nothing to do with linesmen and
referees.

We don't really have a counterfactual, but maybe things would have turned
out differently if in those crucial knockouot matches we hadn't pulled the
baricenter of the team 20 meters back, and instead tried to keep control of
the midfield and played a more possession-based football instead of relying
exclusively on counterattacks.
Post by Goldmund
(of course the defeats on penalties and golden goal came with the
likes of Brasil, France, Argentina, Germany, so the defeat in 2002
against Korea may be defined a failure, but I'd prefer not to talk
again about that match and the disgraced refs and linesmen of
Korea-Japan 2002)
Give it a break. You wouldn't want people starting to complain about our
glorious 5th U21 European championship, with Sculli's first goal against
Serbia (in the group stage) from an offside position, Serbia's potential
equalizer in the same match that was wrongly disallowed, or Gilardino's
sealing goal against Portugal, once again offside.

I *really* find it extremely hard to believe that anyone who is not trolling
would attribute Italy's elimination in Korea to Moreno and co.

Daniele
Peter Phung
2004-06-09 04:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Goldmund
Since 1990 Italy was ousted 3 times from WC at penalties and one on
golden goal.
Isn't that exactly the point? Out of our last 4 WC eliminations, how many
times did we really try to win? By this I mean pressing high in midfield,
attacking with 6 or 7 men as a rule and not an exception, trying to dominate
ball possession, etc. Against Argentina in 1990, and that only because we
were playing at home.
1990 was a definate choke, you can't lose at home to a poor team like that
while leading 1-0.
Post by Futbolmetrix
In 1994
I wouldn't consider 1994 a choke, they got as far as they could with a poor
start and eventually, injuries and fatigue caught up to them.. Considering
they defended brilliantly against Brazil and nearly pulled it out, I'd
consider that an accomplishment.
Post by Futbolmetrix
and 1998 we never seriously tried to go beyond
0-0 and penalties.
1998 was not a very strong team and the team played too defensive and scared
against the French, although you have to consider that match was in Paris.
But remember.. they were practically inches (Baggio volley) from the final.
Post by Futbolmetrix
In 2002 we choked: we had several good chances to close
the match and choked, and that's got nothing to do with linesmen and
referees.
That was a definate choke. Bad strategy, taking Del Piero off for Gattuso
with a 1-0 lead. Unable to finish chances to make it 2-0. What are you
afraid of that you have to defend? You're playing frigging Korea! Bad bad
loss.
Post by Futbolmetrix
We don't really have a counterfactual, but maybe things would have turned
out differently if in those crucial knockouot matches we hadn't pulled the
baricenter of the team 20 meters back, and instead tried to keep control of
the midfield and played a more possession-based football instead of relying
exclusively on counterattacks.
Difficult to say, Italy does play better defensive than going out on the
attack.
You forget to mention their 0-0 victory against Holland in Euro 2000.. is
that considered a 'bad' victory?
The loss to France in 2000 was unfortunate but i dont know if it was
choking. They tired in the end and the tying goal was either a lucky bounce
or a poor save... depends how you look at it.


Peter
Goldmund
2004-06-09 05:26:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 01:15:28 +0200, "Futbolmetrix"
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Goldmund
Since 1990 Italy was ousted 3 times from WC at penalties and one on
golden goal.
Isn't that exactly the point? Out of our last 4 WC eliminations, how many
times did we really try to win? By this I mean pressing high in midfield,
attacking with 6 or 7 men as a rule and not an exception, trying to dominate
ball possession, etc. Against Argentina in 1990, and that only because we
were playing at home. In 1994 and 1998 we never seriously tried to go beyond
0-0 and penalties. In 2002 we choked: we had several good chances to close
the match and choked, and that's got nothing to do with linesmen and
referees.
We don't really have a counterfactual, but maybe things would have turned
out differently if in those crucial knockouot matches we hadn't pulled the
baricenter of the team 20 meters back, and instead tried to keep control of
the midfield and played a more possession-based football instead of relying
exclusively on counterattacks.
Maybe things would have turned out differently if a couple of
penalties went to the net and we wold be talking about a great
defensive team that won 2 WC and 1 EC in the last 15 years.

Better to attack? You should know by know that I don't believe that
the god of football impose to attack. The best strategy is the winning
one, sometimes it's offensive, sometimes defensive.
Post by Futbolmetrix
Give it a break. You wouldn't want people starting to complain about our
glorious 5th U21 European championship, with Sculli's first goal against
Serbia (in the group stage) from an offside position, Serbia's potential
equalizer in the same match that was wrongly disallowed, or Gilardino's
sealing goal against Portugal, once again offside.
I *really* find it extremely hard to believe that anyone who is not trolling
would attribute Italy's elimination in Korea to Moreno and co.
Daniele
As I said, I won't start that thing again.
Mind you, don't compare 1 disallowed goal or 1 offside with that
situation. Football is full of bad ref decisions, and this may rise
complains, bit it is a different story of what happened in Korea.
Full stop to it, as we put a full stop to waht happened in Chile,
another match that probably you find *really* hard to believe that was
disgraced by a terrbile referee.
Futbolmetrix
2004-06-09 08:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
Maybe things would have turned out differently if a couple of
penalties went to the net and we wold be talking about a great
defensive team that won 2 WC and 1 EC in the last 15 years.
So maybe we should have concentrated more on improving our penalty kicks.
Post by Goldmund
Better to attack? You should know by know that I don't believe that
the god of football impose to attack. The best strategy is the winning
one, sometimes it's offensive, sometimes defensive.
Of course. But the bottom line is that in the past 15 years we have played
with always the same strategy, and that has won us exactly the same number
of trophies as Vanuatu.
Post by Goldmund
As I said, I won't start that thing again.
Mind you, don't compare 1 disallowed goal or 1 offside with that
situation. Football is full of bad ref decisions, and this may rise
complains, bit it is a different story of what happened in Korea.
Full stop to it, as we put a full stop to waht happened in Chile,
another match that probably you find *really* hard to believe that was
disgraced by a terrbile referee.
Not at all. From the 30-second clips I have seen, I can say that there can
be absolutely no comaprison between Mr. Aston and Mr. Moreno. We were kicked
out of WC 2002 because of Panucci, Maldini, Totti, Vieri, and Trapattoni,
not because of Moreno.

Daniele
Benny
2004-06-09 13:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Subject : U21: Italian domination
So maybe we should have concentrated more on improving our penalty kicks.
Penalties are 99% mental, 1% technique.
Not at all. From the 30-second clips I have seen, I can say that there can
be absolutely no comaprison between Mr. Aston and Mr. Moreno. We were kicked
out of WC 2002 because of Panucci, Maldini, Totti, Vieri, and Trapattoni,
not because of Moreno.
Daniele
Moreno was a convenient scapegoat but if you remember once the dust
settled the media and fans questioned the way Italy played.

http://soccer-europe.com
new look, same old shit
Goldmund
2004-06-09 20:05:11 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 10:31:54 +0200, "Futbolmetrix"
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Goldmund
Maybe things would have turned out differently if a couple of
penalties went to the net and we wold be talking about a great
defensive team that won 2 WC and 1 EC in the last 15 years.
So maybe we should have concentrated more on improving our penalty kicks.
I simply tend to accept things as they come in sports, that are not a
math equation.
A couple of penalties or shots might have made Italy the top winning
team, but this shouldn't change the opinion on the teams that played
since 1990 (but for most of the people, it does)
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Goldmund
Better to attack? You should know by know that I don't believe that
the god of football impose to attack. The best strategy is the winning
one, sometimes it's offensive, sometimes defensive.
Of course. But the bottom line is that in the past 15 years we have played
with always the same strategy, and that has won us exactly the same number
of trophies as Vanuatu.
That's low level demagogics. In the past 15 years all teams but
Brasil, France, Germany and Denmark have won the same number of
trophies of Vanuatu (add Argentina, Uruguay and colombia if you want
to consider Copa america, but that's not comparable to EC)
Post by Futbolmetrix
Not at all. From the 30-second clips I have seen, I can say that there can
be absolutely no comaprison between Mr. Aston and Mr. Moreno. We were kicked
out of WC 2002 because of Panucci, Maldini, Totti, Vieri, and Trapattoni,
not because of Moreno.
I know that's your opinion, and I think it also applies to Spain.
anders t
2004-06-09 20:22:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
That's low level demagogics.
No. It's _exactly_ to the point(*).
Post by Goldmund
In the past 15 years all teams but
Brasil, France, Germany and Denmark have won the same number of
trophies of Vanuatu (add Argentina, Uruguay and colombia if you want
to consider Copa america, but that's not comparable to EC)
Even I, hater of Italian football (-tactics), admit that even the most
wooden-legged left back of an Italian NT has more technical skills than
Sweden's most gifted player.

In the case of Sweden, it is expected that we play a tactical game in order
to squeeze out what we have of talent.

In the case of Italy, it is the case that their wealth of talent is held
back in the name of the Holy Catenccio and its derivatives.

(*) The point is that Italy's talent is no worse than Brasil, France,
Germany and Denmark, yet it's stubborn defensive game plan only gives them
pk losses.
--
On a dirty worn-out sidewalk sits a mother with a baby
In her vale of tears she sees no rainbow
And someone's singing from a window
In the mission of the sacred heart
Goldmund
2004-06-09 20:36:56 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:22:47 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
That's low level demagogics.
No. It's _exactly_ to the point(*).
(*) The point is that Italy's talent is no worse than Brasil, France,
Germany and Denmark, yet it's stubborn defensive game plan only gives them
pk losses.
Of course, but here comes my point. If Italy had beaten Brasil on
penalty in 1994 and hadn't suffered an avoidable goal at 93th in
EC2000 (just to mention the closest targets), what would we be
discussing about?
Would we criticize a team that had won 1 WC and 1 EC in 10 years?
And what would have this added to our style of play? Nothing, but
people would be saying how great defensive football earned us the
trophies.
anders t
2004-06-09 21:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:22:47 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
That's low level demagogics.
No. It's _exactly_ to the point(*).
(*) The point is that Italy's talent is no worse than Brasil, France,
Germany and Denmark, yet it's stubborn defensive game plan only gives them
pk losses.
Of course, but here comes my point. If Italy had beaten Brasil on
penalty in 1994 and hadn't suffered an avoidable goal at 93th in
EC2000 (just to mention the closest targets), what would we be
discussing about?
Would we criticize a team that had won 1 WC and 1 EC in 10 years?
And what would have this added to our style of play? Nothing, but
people would be saying how great defensive football earned us the
trophies.
You just can't see the point. Ask yourself WHY you have to talk about ifs
and buts.
--
On a dirty worn-out sidewalk sits a mother with a baby
In her vale of tears she sees no rainbow
And someone's singing from a window
In the mission of the sacred heart
Goldmund
2004-06-09 22:05:08 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:08:00 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
Of course, but here comes my point. If Italy had beaten Brasil on
penalty in 1994 and hadn't suffered an avoidable goal at 93th in
EC2000 (just to mention the closest targets), what would we be
discussing about?
Would we criticize a team that had won 1 WC and 1 EC in 10 years?
And what would have this added to our style of play? Nothing, but
people would be saying how great defensive football earned us the
trophies.
You just can't see the point. Ask yourself WHY you have to talk about ifs
and buts.
I think you (not you Anders, but many of you) can't see the point and
just accept sport for what it is, that is something different than
maths.
You may notice I didn't throw in unconsidered 'ifs' and 'buts' , but
two events where luck can turn out things dramatically.
Do we have to accept that luck plays a role in it? Well, it does, but
if you don't want to accept it, go on torturing with the thought that
organization, style of play, talent may erase fortune.
I just accept it, in sports and in life, that deso NOT mean that I
don't try to fight it, but I don't change my opinion on a performance
based on that.
Futbolmetrix
2004-06-10 07:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
You may notice I didn't throw in unconsidered 'ifs' and 'buts' , but
two events where luck can turn out things dramatically.
Do we have to accept that luck plays a role in it? Well, it does, but
if you don't want to accept it, go on torturing with the thought that
organization, style of play, talent may erase fortune.
I understand your position, but shouldn't we be asking ourselves why we got
ourselves in a position where luck could play a role? Couldn't we have
played differently in some matches, so that we wouldn't have had to rely on
the luck of penalty kicks?

I can say that Ancelotti lost a scudetto to Roma because in the decisive
match his goalie spilled an easy shot by Nakata and let Montella equalize,
so he's not really to blame. But why did we get into a position that
Nakata's prayer could be influential at all?

Daniele
Diabolik
2004-06-10 07:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Goldmund
You may notice I didn't throw in unconsidered 'ifs' and 'buts' , but
two events where luck can turn out things dramatically.
Do we have to accept that luck plays a role in it? Well, it does, but
if you don't want to accept it, go on torturing with the thought that
organization, style of play, talent may erase fortune.
I understand your position, but shouldn't we be asking ourselves why we got
ourselves in a position where luck could play a role? Couldn't we have
played differently in some matches, so that we wouldn't have had to rely on
the luck of penalty kicks?
Why don't you ask yourself the question:
"Would we have made the finals if we would have played differently?"

Why do you assume that we would have made the finals by playing supposedly
"attacking" football?
Post by Futbolmetrix
I can say that Ancelotti lost a scudetto to Roma because in the decisive
match his goalie spilled an easy shot by Nakata and let Montella equalize,
so he's not really to blame. But why did we get into a position that
Nakata's prayer could be influential at all?
Daniele
JK
2004-06-10 13:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diabolik
Why do you assume that we would have made the finals by playing supposedly
"attacking" football?
Um, how about, "Because you have some good to great attacking players?"

And, "Because your defenders and keepers are so spectacular that you
should be able to loosen the reins a little on offense and not suffer
defensively?"

Whatever. Doesn't bother me if you are content to keep it close and hope
for the best in a PK shootout.
MH
2004-06-10 08:32:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Goldmund
You may notice I didn't throw in unconsidered 'ifs' and 'buts' , but
two events where luck can turn out things dramatically.
Do we have to accept that luck plays a role in it? Well, it does, but
if you don't want to accept it, go on torturing with the thought that
organization, style of play, talent may erase fortune.
I understand your position, but shouldn't we be asking ourselves why we got
ourselves in a position where luck could play a role?
well, in the case of Euro 2000, Italy got into a position where (bad)
luck could play a role by incredible good luck.

But to be fair, the Italian teams of 1990 and 1996 played some excellent
football. Both would have been deserving winners of those tournaments,
much moreso than Italy would have been had it won in 1994 or 2000.

Maybe the 1990 and 1996 teams , who were very enterprising, and not at
all defensive (though the 1990 one created far too many wasted chances)
marked the psyche of subsequent coaches, who wanted a safety-first
approach ?

However, no European team has won anything in the past 15 years by being
entirely convincing, and in fact all trophy winners but France (2000)
had to win games on penalties to get to the final, IIRC. And France in
2000 needed Raul to miss a penalty, a somewhat debatable late penalty to
be awarded against Portugal, and a 93rd minute winner to carry off that
trophy (plus being lucky not to have to have faced the Netherlands in
the final)

It is all so close at this level that a team could quite easily be the
most accomplished in Europe over a long period, and not win any trophies.


Couldn't we have
Post by Futbolmetrix
played differently in some matches, so that we wouldn't have had to rely on
the luck of penalty kicks?
I can say that Ancelotti lost a scudetto to Roma because in the decisive
match his goalie spilled an easy shot by Nakata and let Montella equalize,
so he's not really to blame. But why did we get into a position that
Nakata's prayer could be influential at all?
Daniele
Goldmund
2004-06-10 20:28:40 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:32:06 +0200, MH
Post by MH
However, no European team has won anything in the past 15 years by being
entirely convincing, and in fact all trophy winners but France (2000)
had to win games on penalties to get to the final, IIRC. And France in
2000 needed Raul to miss a penalty, a somewhat debatable late penalty to
be awarded against Portugal, and a 93rd minute winner to carry off that
trophy (plus being lucky not to have to have faced the Netherlands in
the final)
It is all so close at this level that a team could quite easily be the
most accomplished in Europe over a long period, and not win any trophies.
Very well said
Goldmund
2004-06-10 20:30:15 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:43:45 +0200, "Futbolmetrix"
Post by Futbolmetrix
I understand your position, but shouldn't we be asking ourselves why we got
ourselves in a position where luck could play a role? Couldn't we have
played differently in some matches, so that we wouldn't have had to rely on
the luck of penalty kicks?
Maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe playing a different football we might have
lost in earlier rounds. Just as Brasil playing a different football
might have drawn with Italy in 1982 and win the title.
anders t
2004-06-10 20:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:43:45 +0200, "Futbolmetrix"
Post by Futbolmetrix
I understand your position, but shouldn't we be asking ourselves why we got
ourselves in a position where luck could play a role? Couldn't we have
played differently in some matches, so that we wouldn't have had to rely on
the luck of penalty kicks?
Maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe playing a different football we might have
lost in earlier rounds. Just as Brasil playing a different football
might have drawn with Italy in 1982 and win the title.
But this is the wholw point. It seems like Italy is content with "secure
near misses" all the time instead of going for it and win sometimes.

Which is the better streak: 1-3-5 or 3-3-3?

An Italian coach says 3-3-3...
--
On a dirty worn-out sidewalk sits a mother with a baby
In her vale of tears she sees no rainbow
And someone's singing from a window
In the mission of the sacred heart
Goldmund
2004-06-10 20:52:51 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:37:57 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
But this is the wholw point. It seems like Italy is content with "secure
near misses" all the time instead of going for it and win sometimes.
Which is the better streak: 1-3-5 or 3-3-3?
An Italian coach says 3-3-3...
that's probably partly correct: if you lose by a bit you may always
say you were unlucky (and this not always being an excuse, but also
being the truth in many cases).
Risking more you may "force" your luck, sometimes for the good
sometimes for the bad. The point is nobody in Italy would accept us
losing early becasue we risked and tried to play attractive football.
We are more pragmatic
anders t
2004-06-11 11:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
that's probably partly correct: if you lose by a bit you may always
say you were unlucky (and this not always being an excuse, but also
being the truth in many cases).
Risking more you may "force" your luck, sometimes for the good
sometimes for the bad. The point is nobody in Italy would accept us
losing early becasue we risked and tried to play attractive football.
We are more pragmatic
No. You are cowards.
--
On a dirty worn-out sidewalk sits a mother with a baby
In her vale of tears she sees no rainbow
And someone's singing from a window
In the mission of the sacred heart
Goldmund
2004-06-11 17:31:12 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:23:11 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
that's probably partly correct: if you lose by a bit you may always
say you were unlucky (and this not always being an excuse, but also
being the truth in many cases).
Risking more you may "force" your luck, sometimes for the good
sometimes for the bad. The point is nobody in Italy would accept us
losing early becasue we risked and tried to play attractive football.
We are more pragmatic
No. You are cowards.
Pfft...low level insults, not worth answering
Robbie
2004-06-11 17:44:23 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, Goldmund graces us
with a reply...
Post by Goldmund
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:23:11 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
that's probably partly correct: if you lose by a bit you may always
say you were unlucky (and this not always being an excuse, but also
being the truth in many cases).
Risking more you may "force" your luck, sometimes for the good
sometimes for the bad. The point is nobody in Italy would accept us
losing early becasue we risked and tried to play attractive football.
We are more pragmatic
No. You are cowards.
Pfft...low level insults, not worth answering
Plonk him! Plonk him!! Plonk him!!!
anders t
2004-06-11 18:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:23:11 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
that's probably partly correct: if you lose by a bit you may always
say you were unlucky (and this not always being an excuse, but also
being the truth in many cases).
Risking more you may "force" your luck, sometimes for the good
sometimes for the bad. The point is nobody in Italy would accept us
losing early becasue we risked and tried to play attractive football.
We are more pragmatic
No. You are cowards.
Pfft...low level insults, not worth answering
I have described it in more words in earlier posts. You just don't seem to
understand. Futbolmetrix seems to understand what I mean though.
--
On a dirty worn-out sidewalk sits a mother with a baby
In her vale of tears she sees no rainbow
And someone's singing from a window
In the mission of the sacred heart
Goldmund
2004-06-12 08:07:50 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:01:39 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
I have described it in more words in earlier posts. You just don't seem to
understand. Futbolmetrix seems to understand what I mean though.
Futbolmetrix seems to agree with you, which actually doesn't surprise
me, me and Daniele rarely agree on something.
That's all you can say, the rest is garbage
anders t
2004-06-12 08:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
Futbolmetrix seems to agree with you, which actually doesn't surprise
me, me and Daniele rarely agree on something.
That's all you can say, the rest is garbage
No, it isn't. You are just on the defensive, supporting your beliefs.
It's a very human reaction, and you are therefore excused.

Look. I didn't mean "Italians are cowards", I meant "Italians are cowards
when it comes to football tactics".
--
On a dirty worn-out sidewalk sits a mother with a baby
In her vale of tears she sees no rainbow
And someone's singing from a window
In the mission of the sacred heart
Alessandro Riolo
2004-06-12 09:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by anders t
I didn't mean "Italians are cowards", I meant "Italians are cowards
when it comes to football tactics".
As I already stated otherwhere, I don't believe it is about cowardice, but
about the fact the bulk of the Italian NT has ever been made by Northeners,
and it is reflecting Northern Italian values, as humbleness, defensiveness,
protection of their little villages and so on. If the bulk of the NT would
be made from Southerners, something will never happen just for demographic
and sociocultural reasons (young Southerners, living mostly in cities, have
also often less time availavable), the Italian NT would be much more
flamboyant (and its results would probably closely resemble that of Spain
..).
--
ale
http://www.sen.it
i.deardo
2004-06-12 17:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alessandro Riolo
Post by anders t
I didn't mean "Italians are cowards", I meant "Italians are cowards
when it comes to football tactics".
As I already stated otherwhere, I don't believe it is about cowardice, but
about the fact the bulk of the Italian NT has ever been made by Northeners,
and it is reflecting Northern Italian values, as humbleness,
defensiveness,
Post by Alessandro Riolo
protection of their little villages and so on. If the bulk of the NT would
be made from Southerners, something will never happen just for demographic
and sociocultural reasons (young Southerners, living mostly in cities, have
also often less time availavable), the Italian NT would be much more
flamboyant (and its results would probably closely resemble that of Spain
..).
--
ale
http://www.sen.it
I had a quick check about the regions of the players in the squad and here
are the results...now a few players were difficult to place (like Oddo for
example, his dad is Siciliano but he was born in Pescara IIRC).
Interestingly, 11 players come from Lazio or places further south...thank
God for Cosenza!

Lombardia (3) Favalli, Zambrotta, Pirlo
Veneto (2) Del Piero, Toldo
Liguria (1) Panucci
Emilia Romagna (1) Vieri*
Toscana (3) Buffon, Zanetti, Corradi
Lazio (4) Totti, Nesta, Di Vaio, Peruzzi
Campania (1) Cannavaro
Puglia (2) Cassano, Materazzi
Calabria (3) Gattuso, Fiore, Perrotta*
Sicilia (1) Oddo*
estero (2) Ferrari, Camoranesi...both can be considered DEEP south! ;)

I think the lack of Serie A clubs in the Mezzogiorno relative to the
population might have an impact on the numbers. It will be interesting to
see the impact of clubs like Reggina, Lecce, Palermo, Messina in the next
decade or so.

Best
Ian
Alessandro Riolo
2004-06-12 18:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by i.deardo
I had a quick check about the regions of the players in the squad
and here are the results ..
You're right, but this is a pretty exceptional NT, from this point of
view. I guess it helped also the fact in the last 20 years the 3 Roman
clubs (Lodigiani at youth level is a powerhouse) managed to build very
good "vivai". About Oddo I really don't know where is father is from,
but I know that surname is one of the most typical surnames of the area
where I live, I've a couple of friends holding that.
--
ale
http://www.sen.it
rara temporum felicitate, ubi sentire
quae velis, et quae sentias dicere, licet
Alessandro Riolo
2004-06-12 22:04:59 UTC
Permalink
.. Perrotta*
The star, I suppose, is related from him being born close Manchester,
right? I remember I once read when he was a child he could only talk in
English, but nowadays he completely forgot that, more or less as my
father, who was a ball boy in a British Officiers Club and the ever
welcome host of the ball girl's mother ..
--
ale
http://www.sen.it
rara temporum felicitate, ubi sentire
quae velis, et quae sentias dicere, licet
Goldmund
2004-06-12 13:40:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:44:07 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
Futbolmetrix seems to agree with you, which actually doesn't surprise
me, me and Daniele rarely agree on something.
That's all you can say, the rest is garbage
No, it isn't. You are just on the defensive, supporting your beliefs.
It's a very human reaction, and you are therefore excused.
I can excuse you if you realize how stupid the comment was, otherwise
i'm not intereseted in your paperback considerations on human nature
Post by anders t
Look. I didn't mean "Italians are cowards", I meant "Italians are cowards
when it comes to football tactics".
Yes, I u-n-d-e-r-s-t-o-o-d. And I d-i-s-a-g-r-e-e
Clear enough?
anders t
2004-06-12 15:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goldmund
I can excuse you if you realize how stupid the comment was, otherwise
i'm not intereseted in your paperback considerations on human nature
Dream on, Goldmund, dream on.
Post by Goldmund
Post by anders t
Look. I didn't mean "Italians are cowards", I meant "Italians are cowards
when it comes to football tactics".
Yes, I u-n-d-e-r-s-t-o-o-d. And I d-i-s-a-g-r-e-e
Clear enough?
It's your prerogative. It won't help Italy, though.
--
On a dirty worn-out sidewalk sits a mother with a baby
In her vale of tears she sees no rainbow
And someone's singing from a window
In the mission of the sacred heart
Goldmund
2004-06-12 20:52:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:36:49 +0200, anders t
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
I can excuse you if you realize how stupid the comment was, otherwise
i'm not intereseted in your paperback considerations on human nature
Dream on, Goldmund, dream on.
Post by Goldmund
Post by anders t
Look. I didn't mean "Italians are cowards", I meant "Italians are cowards
when it comes to football tactics".
Yes, I u-n-d-e-r-s-t-o-o-d. And I d-i-s-a-g-r-e-e
Clear enough?
It's your prerogative. It won't help Italy, though.
Yes, thanks, I will ask for your paperbacks when I will feel the need
of cheap wisdom
Robbie
2004-06-11 17:36:29 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, anders t graces us
with a reply...
Post by anders t
Post by Goldmund
that's probably partly correct: if you lose by a bit you may always
say you were unlucky (and this not always being an excuse, but also
being the truth in many cases).
Risking more you may "force" your luck, sometimes for the good
sometimes for the bad. The point is nobody in Italy would accept us
losing early becasue we risked and tried to play attractive football.
We are more pragmatic
No. You are cowards.
Hey Anders - stop being kind. :)
Benny
2004-06-09 13:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Subject : U21: Italian domination
Maybe things would have turned out differently if a couple of
penalties went to the net and we wold be talking about a great
defensive team that won 2 WC and 1 EC in the last 15 years.
Better to attack? You should know by know that I don't believe that
the god of football impose to attack. The best strategy is the winning
one, sometimes it's offensive, sometimes defensive.
The best strategy is to play to your strengths. I said the same about
Milan when Ancelotti first took over and the season after he found a way
to field all (nearly all) of the teams attackers. I don't see why Italy
can't follow Ancelotti's example and play with 2 playmakers, Pirlo as
the deep lying playmaker and Totti behind the strikers.
As I said, I won't start that thing again.
Mind you, don't compare 1 disallowed goal or 1 offside with that
situation. Football is full of bad ref decisions, and this may rise
complains, bit it is a different story of what happened in Korea.
Full stop to it, as we put a full stop to waht happened in Chile,
another match that probably you find *really* hard to believe that was
disgraced by a terrbile referee.
Unfortunately this type of thing happens too often.

http://soccer-europe.com
new look, same old shit
Goldmund
2004-06-09 19:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benny
The best strategy is to play to your strengths. I said the same about
Milan when Ancelotti first took over and the season after he found a way
to field all (nearly all) of the teams attackers. I don't see why Italy
can't follow Ancelotti's example and play with 2 playmakers, Pirlo as
the deep lying playmaker and Totti behind the strikers.
We could, and I think it will be an option in some games.
But to tell the truth (and you know I'm a fan of Pirlo form the very
beginning) lately i've seen him play awful matches in the nt.
Only the last he played was acceptable, all the rest were a disaster
imo: slow, easily pressed, making a lot of bad passes...
no_entry_spammers
2004-06-09 12:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Futbolmetrix
Post by Goldmund
Since 1990 Italy was ousted 3 times from WC at penalties and one on
golden goal.
Isn't that exactly the point? Out of our last 4 WC eliminations, how many
times did we really try to win? By this I mean pressing high in midfield,
attacking with 6 or 7 men as a rule and not an exception, trying to dominate
ball possession, etc. Against Argentina in 1990, and that only because we
were playing at home. In 1994 and 1998 we never seriously tried to go beyond
0-0 and penalties. In 2002 we choked: we had several good chances to close
the match and choked, and that's got nothing to do with linesmen and
referees.
It's in the Italian mentality to play the way they do and nothing is
going to change that, they pride themselves in producing great
defenders and once they're 1-0 up against any team, they're a sure bet
to win. In 94, they played counter-attacking football and reached the
final, in 96, they choked and didn't even get out of the group stage,
in 98, they were unlucky to go out in penalties against the French, in
2000, again unlucky in the final against teh French, 2002, they
chocked against Korea, although you have to admit they had made
decisions go against them, 2004, we'll see. Considering they play
such a negative style of football and still reached 2 finals over the
last 12 years or so is excellent when compared to great attacking
teams that don't even get to a single final. It's only a matter of
time before they do win one again.
Post by Futbolmetrix
We don't really have a counterfactual, but maybe things would have turned
out differently if in those crucial knockouot matches we hadn't pulled the
baricenter of the team 20 meters back, and instead tried to keep control of
the midfield and played a more possession-based football instead of relying
exclusively on counterattacks.
Impossible. Italy have got world class keepers, world class
defenders, average midfielders, world class strikers. Beside Gattuso
and maybe Pirlo (both of whom aren't 1st choice), they seriously lack
quality to keep possession.
Benny
2004-06-09 13:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Subject : U21: Italian domination
Impossible. Italy have got world class keepers, world class
defenders, average midfielders, world class strikers. Beside Gattuso
and maybe Pirlo (both of whom aren't 1st choice), they seriously lack
quality to keep possession.
Possession based football is possible with Pirlo.

http://soccer-europe.com
new look, same old shit
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