Discussion:
Sid Lowe on Spanish views on Italy
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Google Beta User
2008-06-18 14:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Comment: Interesting article from the Guardian.

Jittery Spaniards prepare for their bete noire
After 88 years without a competitive win over Italy, Spain are
already
panicking about Sunday's quarter-final
Sid LoweJune 18, 2008 1:09 PM


The newsreader put on his most earnest face, smoothed down his
moustache, looked into the camera and read from the autocue. Never
mind that this was TVE, supposedly the sober voice of serious,
straight news. "Spain", he said, "will play Italy. The same old
Italy;
the Italy that never plays football but always wins." As the tape
rolled, a voice testily told how the Italians, "champions of the
world
and champions of luck", had beaten France thanks to the fact that
"destiny favoured them yet again". The Azzurri, agreed Marca, are the
team with "seven lives".


No side provokes such distaste in Spain as Italy, whose football is
derided as cynical, dirty and boring, somehow illegitimate. As José
Ángel de la Casa, for decades the voice of the Spanish national team
-
a kind of tranquil John Motson without the obsession over his dinner,
the sheepskin coats or those heh-heh moments - admitted with a hint
of
discomfort: "As a nation, we have always shown contempt towards
Italian football." Not just because of the chance but also because of
the "cheating". Now and over the next few days, that will become more
evident than ever.


The Italians, declares this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games
and
subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose
all
over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
quarter-final, an elbow that "still hurts Spain". "If there is an
image that sums up Italy v Spain meetings it's the bloody face of a
crying Luis Enrique after getting an elbow that referee Sándor Puhl
didn't see - or didn't want to see," Marca snipes.


"Italian cheating once again went unpunished, but at least they got
what they deserved by losing in the final with two historic penalty
misses from their great stars: [Roberto] Baggio and [Franco] Baresi",
Marca continues, picking on two innocent men, while the front page
headline warns: "Italy, we have not forgotten this."


They can say that again: as Roberto Palomar puts it, everywhere he
looks he sees Luis Enrique and from now until Sunday's match there
will be no escape as the telly goes into smashed-nose overload. "I go
to fill the car with petrol and there's Luis Enrique vomiting blood
behind the pump; I go to take a piss and there's Luis Enrique in the
cubicle, doubled over, cleaning the blood off his disfigured face; I
climb into bed and there's someone there next to my wife - it's Mauro
Tassotti".


The same Mauro Tassotti who won that day - and that's kind of the
point. Italy, as Palomar argued, is a ghost that haunts Spain.
Despite
the bravado, despite the implicit threat on Marca's cover, Italy
don't
just inspire loathing, they inspire fear too. Lots of it. There is a
hint of getting your excuses in early about the Spanish media today.
And there is little hiding the disappointment when they look at
Romania - the speedboat Jim Bowen says they could have won - and then
back at the Italians they've actually got. One headline this morning
simply screamed "No!". "Italy, always Italy", sighed El País. And on
the radio they were asking an uncomfortable question: "Are you
shitting yourself?"


The answer was yes. Last night's result was the last thing the
Spanish
wanted: Luis Aragonés said it, the press said it and the online polls
said it. José Vicente Hernáez signed off from yesterday evening's
preview on Marca TV with a: "Do us a favour Holland, lose! Come on
Romania!" Never mind the ethics, he spoke for everyone. Romania would
have been perfect; a creaking France, just about acceptable; Italy, a
disaster. "They're not the opponents we wanted, that's for sure,"
mumbled Aragonés. AS likens Italy to the beetle-tick that stalks the
Austrian mountains, ready to deliver a fatal blow with a single bite.
As Álvaro Arbeloa put it: "Italy are always the same: they scrape
through and then win the tournament." Which would of course mean
beating Spain.


On the face of it, Spain shouldn't be worried. In fact, they should
be
relishing the opportunity to bury those ghosts against a team that -
as the commentators reminded us 37 times in the final 10 minutes last
night - will be without Andrea Pirlo and Gennaro Gattuso. After all,
after two games for every team, Spain had completed more passes than
any other country, and a higher percentage too. They are No1 in
attacks, No1 in shots and No16 (in other words the best) in shots
faced.


Better still, for all the talk of short, precise, slow build-up and
despite its visceral defence from the talibans of tiki-taka (pass and
move), Spain have scored six goals this tournament - five from breaks
or, let's face it, aimless hoofs; one from a set-play. This time,
there's real pace, a cutting edge, a will and a way to do it
differently. And a bit of luck too. Spain have some semblance of
togetherness at last, a team Cesc Fabregas can't even get into, after
Aragonés sensibly recognised that his five-man midfield didn't work,
and consequently they have David Villa - the new kid on the block,
the
revelation of world football who's only been the best striker in
Spain
for four years.


And yet, apart from Cuatro TV - whose "come on!, yes!, yes!, yes!,
you
can do it!, go on!, yes!, that's it!, that's it!, good!, that's the
way!, oh yes!" commentary sounds more like the soundtrack from a
saucy
film than five blokes narrating a football match - the Spanish have
been strikingly calm about the tournament so far. Sure, they've been
delighted with what they have seen. But so often bitten for once shy,
there's been little of the tub-thumping from the last World Cup, when
they promised to retire Zinedine Zidane three games before Marco
Materazzi actually did and announced themselves the best side in the
tournament after a single game.


Not least because there's a recognition of their failings. Attack may
be the best form of defence but there are fears about the back four,
about the weakness of Carles Puyol and Carlos Marchena and the huge
dip in form of Sergio Ramos. There's concern too about the anaemic
performances of Andrés Iniesta and an unusual recognition that, even
as Spain prepare to play tonight's match with the rare luxury of
fielding a team of subs, they've not actually won anything - the
message conveyed by players and press alike. The real stuff starts
here; the very point at which Spain normally end.


If Romania awaited, they might now have begun to believe. But it's
Italy. And as the editor of AS put it: "Italy don't scare me, they
terrify me." Italy. Spain's bete noire (even if their last
competitive
game was that one 14 years ago). Italy. The side seemingly best
equipped to undo Spain's technical yet lightweight midfield. Italy.
In
the quarter-final. On June 22. The team they have not beaten in a
competitive match for 88 years. At the traditionally insurmountable
hurdle, the stage they have not passed in 24 years. On the same date
that they have been knocked out for each of the last three
tournaments.


Happily, there is one, big difference this time. Not the absence of
Tassotti - after all, the man with the razor-sharp elbows will be on
the bench on Sunday - but the absence of the other sadly decisive man
from that day in the US. This time, Spain have David Villa and
Fernando Torres, not Julio Salinas.
Isaac J.
2008-06-18 15:53:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:19:41 -0700 (PDT), Google Beta User wrote:

> I go to take a piss and there's Luis Enrique in the
> cubicle, doubled over, cleaning the blood off his disfigured face;

He's imagining this, right? :)
SMT
2008-06-18 16:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Ha, Sid Lowe has it exactly right, as always.... There is no Sid Lowe
in the Spanish sports press, unfortunately. The closest is the
relatively sober Alfredo Relaño, but his articles don't make
headlines. And Jorge D'Alessandro, the former goalkeeper from
Argentina with a long career playing and coaching in Spain, who tells
the truth on Punto Radio --- but the entire team is leaving the
station over disagreements.

I would say that 9 out of 10 football comentators in Spain are
propagandists for something -- Real Madrid, Barça, national pride,
Raúl, or what have you. It should not be that hard to provide some
truthful commentary about a sport that the readers, listeners and
viewers understand very well...

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-18 18:54:22 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> Ha, Sid Lowe has it exactly right, as always.... There is no Sid Lowe
> in the Spanish sports press, unfortunately. The closest is the
> relatively sober Alfredo Rela�o, but his articles don't make
> headlines. And Jorge D'Alessandro, the former goalkeeper from
> Argentina with a long career playing and coaching in Spain, who tells
> the truth on Punto Radio --- but the entire team is leaving the
> station over disagreements.
>
> I would say that 9 out of 10 football comentators in Spain are
> propagandists for something -- Real Madrid, Bar�a, national pride,
> Ra�l, or what have you. It should not be that hard to provide some
> truthful commentary about a sport that the readers, listeners and
> viewers understand very well...
>
> Best,
>
> SMT

I don't get it. From what I get, the whole of Spain fears Italy for
their historically proven cynical dirty game, which includes, let's
say, profiting from ref's mistakes and undecidedness. So where are
they wrong ?
SMT
2008-06-18 20:08:46 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 2:54 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:

>
> I don't get it. From what I get, the whole of Spain fears Italy for
> their historically proven cynical dirty game, which includes, let's
> say, profiting from ref's mistakes and undecidedness. So where are
> they wrong ?

That is a completely distorted view. You would find a job in the
Spanish press... the idea that Italy doesn't play "real football" is
absurd. They are one of the premier football nations, and have been
for seven decades. What is wrong with recognizing that and talking
about teams, games and upcoming games in a realistic fashion?

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-18 21:14:02 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 18, 2:54 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > I don't get it. From what I get, the whole of Spain fears Italy for
> > their historically proven cynical dirty game, which includes, let's
> > say, profiting from ref's mistakes and undecidedness. So where are
> > they wrong ?
>
> That is a completely distorted view. You would find a job in the
> Spanish press... the idea that Italy doesn't play "real football" is
> absurd.

I don't know about "real football", but their play *is* cynical and
dirty. To take a quote from the spanish press, "The Italians, declares
this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games and
subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose all
over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
quarter-final" . Now, call me out of touch with "real football" but I
can't see any mistake in what they say. By "subterranean play" I guess
they mean their knowledge of fouling and getting away with it. And
that photo IMO is very relevant and well chosen.
SMT
2008-06-18 21:19:32 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 5:14 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:

> I don't know about "real football", but their play *is* cynical and
> dirty. To take a quote from the spanish press, "The Italians, declares
> this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
> other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games and
> subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
> Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose all
> over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
> quarter-final" . Now, call me out of touch with "real football" but I
> can't see any mistake in what they say. By "subterranean play" I guess
> they mean their knowledge of fouling and getting away with it. And
> that photo IMO is very relevant and well chosen.

Well, if that's your view of Italian football, you are entitled to it.
I think it is a gross distortion, a bunch of stereotypes. In
particular, the idea that Italians foul more than other nations is
provably false. And the cheating, too. What do they mean by cheating?
The term is never defined, as you will notice.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-18 21:32:24 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 18, 5:14 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't know about "real football", but their play *is* cynical and
> > dirty. To take a quote from the spanish press, "The Italians, declares
> > this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
> > other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games and
> > subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
> > Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose all
> > over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
> > quarter-final" . Now, call me out of touch with "real football" but I
> > can't see any mistake in what they say. By "subterranean play" I guess
> > they mean their knowledge of fouling and getting away with it. And
> > that photo IMO is very relevant and well chosen.
>
> Well, if that's your view of Italian football, you are entitled to it.
> I think it is a gross distortion, a bunch of stereotypes. In
> particular, the idea that Italians foul more than other nations is
> provably false. And the cheating, too. What do they mean by cheating?
> The term is never defined, as you will notice.
>
> Best,
>
> SMT

To complete this view, I must say they are indeed in the top of
footballing nations, nobody says they don't know football. But they do
also take some edge over others from the "dark side", in my view at
least. I must say, I think this view is solidly supported by facts.
Quick, what's the name of the most dirty and rough defender that ever
played ? (At least in recent times in top football. Hint: he was
champion with Italy in 82, and his name is an oxymoron ;) .)

They don't necessarily foul more than other nations, that's
simplistic. They just gain more advantage of it. Probably also foul
more than top nations in top phases of competitions, say Holland,
Germany, Spain at least, probably also Brazil. I don't have statistics
nor do I know where to look for them, so I might be wrong. In any case
this isn't the point.

There's no need to define cheating. But I did, fouling and getting
away with it. I guess that's what everybody means by it.
SMT
2008-06-18 21:42:17 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 5:32 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:

> To complete this view, I must say they are indeed in the top of
> footballing nations, nobody says they don't know football. But they do
> also take some edge over others from the "dark side", in my view at
> least. I must say, I think this view is solidly supported by facts.
> Quick, what's the name of the most dirty and rough defender that ever
> played ? (At least in recent times in top football. Hint: he was
> champion with Italy in 82, and his name is an oxymoron ;) .)
>

Gentile? He was a vigorous defender, not by any means in the running
for dirtiest defender that ever played, not even close... Er, have you
watched Ricardo Carvalho, Fabián Ayala, Walter Samuel, Heinze before
he reformed, Briegel?

> They don't necessarily foul more than other nations, that's
> simplistic. They just gain more advantage of it. Probably also foul
> more than top nations in top phases of competitions, say Holland,
> Germany, Spain at least, probably also Brazil. I don't have statistics
> nor do I know where to look for them, so I might be wrong. In any case
> this isn't the point.
>
> There's no need to define cheating. But I did, fouling and getting
> away with it. I guess that's what everybody means by it.

It sounds like a false truism. You think they are dirty and get away
with it, so that is what happens. Just because it can be repeated
endlessly, it is not necessarily true. In this case, not true at all.
What the Italians have is discipline in defense, organization
according to some classic principles that, however, have changed over
the years. They are no dirtier than anybody else. They generally have
defended better than other teams, that is obvious. But defending
better includes not giving away a lot of stupid free kicks and
penalties, and the Italians are good at that. I fail to see how a
positive quality such as defending well can be turned into a fault
that people need to be reminded off endlessly.

Best,

SMT
7h@ch
2008-06-18 21:52:07 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 5:42 pm, SMT <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Gentile? He was a vigorous defender, not by any means in the running
> for dirtiest defender that ever played, not even close...

A specialist hitman with a well earned reputation that made him the
poster child of thuggish school of defending is not in the
running? :-) Shoot, he RETIRED that "award".
SMT
2008-06-18 21:59:18 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 5:52 pm, "***@ch" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> A specialist hitman with a well earned reputation that made him the
> poster child of thuggish school of defending is not in the
> running? :-) Shoot, he RETIRED that "award".

In my opinion, he was surpassed by the thugs I mentioned (Samuel,
Ayala, Carvalho, Heinze, Briegel, and there are more competitors). He
was not kind to his adversaries, that is clear. But in the rank of
thuggery, Materazzi surpasses him easily, just among Italians. It's
comical we are arguing about the worst thug, anyway...

Best,

SMT
Enzo
2008-06-19 13:57:13 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 5:59 pm, SMT <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 18, 5:52 pm, "***@ch" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A specialist hitman with a well earned reputation that made him the
> > poster child of thuggish school of defending is not in the
> > running? :-) Shoot, he RETIRED that "award".
>
> In my opinion, he was surpassed by the thugs I mentioned (Samuel,
> Ayala, Carvalho, Heinze, Briegel, and there are more competitors). He
> was not kind to his adversaries, that is clear. But in the rank of
> thuggery, Materazzi surpasses him easily, just among Italians. It's
> comical we are arguing about the worst thug, anyway...
>
> Best,
>
> SMT

Gentile was a piece of work. You compromise your reputation
by defending his dirty play as somehow "aggressive".
FairFootball
2008-06-18 22:01:46 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 18, 5:32 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
>
> > To complete this view, I must say they are indeed in the top of
> > footballing nations, nobody says they don't know football. But they do
> > also take some edge over others from the "dark side", in my view at
> > least. I must say, I think this view is solidly supported by facts.
> > Quick, what's the name of the most dirty and rough defender that ever
> > played ? (At least in recent times in top football. Hint: he was
> > champion with Italy in 82, and his name is an oxymoron ;) .)
> >
>
> Gentile? He was a vigorous defender, not by any means in the running
> for dirtiest defender that ever played, not even close... Er, have you
> watched Ricardo Carvalho, Fabi�n Ayala, Walter Samuel, Heinze before
> he reformed, Briegel?

This is from his wikipedia page:

"One of the toughest and roughest defenders in the history of the
game, Gentile was a key part of both the World Cup winning Italy team
of 1982, and the success of Juventus of the period."

I can't say I personally watched him or the others you mentioned very
much (Gentile I only saw in 82 when he "professionally" annihilated
Maradona then said something about football not being for primadonnas)
but from their reputation as I know it, none of them comes close. Come
think of it, the only one I know who comes close is Materazzi.

> It sounds like a false truism. You think they are dirty and get away
> with it, so that is what happens. Just because it can be repeated
> endlessly, it is not necessarily true. In this case, not true at all.
> What the Italians have is discipline in defense, organization
> according to some classic principles that, however, have changed over
> the years. They are no dirtier than anybody else. They generally have
> defended better than other teams, that is obvious. But defending
> better includes not giving away a lot of stupid free kicks and
> penalties, and the Italians are good at that. I fail to see how a
> positive quality such as defending well can be turned into a fault
> that people need to be reminded off endlessly.

They do defend better than other teams but they also are dirtier,
That's my view and it stays. I can direct you to the WCup 06 page of
my site if you want some hard facts. As for 82, from what I know,
heard and personally saw it was in no small part based on their
defenders, most notably Gentile.
SMT
2008-06-18 22:24:32 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 6:01 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:

> They do defend better than other teams but they also are dirtier,
> That's my view and it stays. I can direct you to the WCup 06 page of
> my site if you want some hard facts. As for 82, from what I know,
> heard and personally saw it was in no small part based on their
> defenders, most notably Gentile.

Scirea and Gentile put on a fantastic defense. As to Maradona being
annihilated, he did take some hard ones man to man with Gentile,
including a terrible one, but Maradona was also a crybaby and a diver.
He thought himself a prima donna who shouldn't be touched. Years ago,
I heard Franz Beckenbauer make the same comment, that football is a
manly sport and that those who don't like close marking should find
something else to do.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-18 23:31:26 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 18, 6:01 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
>
> > They do defend better than other teams but they also are dirtier,
> > That's my view and it stays. I can direct you to the WCup 06 page of
> > my site if you want some hard facts. As for 82, from what I know,
> > heard and personally saw it was in no small part based on their
> > defenders, most notably Gentile.
>
> Scirea and Gentile put on a fantastic defense.

Again from wikipedia:

"Gentile came to international acclaim in the 2nd phase match against
holders Argentina, when he man-marked Diego Maradona out of the game
by kicking and flooring him constantly throughout the game. In Italy's
next match against favourites Brazil he first performed a violent
tackle from behind on Zico and later ripped the Brazilian's shirt in
half during a tussle."

These are the highlights of his career on his wikipedia page. Now,
this guy was part of Italy's national team of 82, he even became world
champion. I don't care if aside of this he was the best defender that
ever lived (which he wasn't), he had no place in football IMO, let
alone being world champion. I find it utterly embarrassing to be an
italian fan and know all this. Not to mention how I'd feel if I was
him. This is his page on wikipedia, for Christ's sake. He probably is
proud of it though.

> but Maradona was also a crybaby and a diver.

So what ?? He was himself a big-time cheat, that's no secret. As for
crybaby / diver, he didn't strike me at all as such from what I saw of
him, I bet this is also mostly a stereotype. Most of the so-called
dives are probably un-given fouls anyway. But even if he had been,
that's no excuse to give him "some hard ones, including a terrible
one", as you put it, *and get away with it* .

> He thought himself a prima donna who shouldn't be touched.

Do you know that for a fact ? Why did he become a pro footballer
then ? Why did he choose Italy and Napoli from all places ?

> Years ago,
> I heard Franz Beckenbauer make the same comment, that football is a
> manly sport and that those who don't like close marking should find
> something else to do.

I'm sorry but this is just lame. If Beckenbauer really said this, he
most certainly didn't mean it the Gentile way. And I bet he never
*ever* did anything close to what Gentile did in 82. He was a natural
lord. Of course, tough defending / marking is OK as long as it's
within limits. And, if mistakes happen, because you can't prevent them
completely, it's also OK. What's not OK is that they aren't punished,
especially when penalties are due.

As for my so-called anti-Italy bias, it's based on facts. Did I say
anything against how they played or were officiated at this Euro ? On
the contrary.
SMT
2008-06-18 23:40:22 UTC
Permalink
So Gentile's career is now defined by Wikipedia? What if a Maradona
Wikipedia entry said that he was mainly a drug addict? Would you
accept it? Look, Gentile was a tough guy, but he was not the ultimate
thug. There have been and there are many. I saw Jürgen Köhler do worse
things than Gentile, yet nobody mentions him. And there have been many
Spanish players as dirty or worse than Gentile, Football in Spain is
rougher than in Italy, on average.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-18 23:46:57 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> So Gentile's career is now defined by Wikipedia?

Are you stating that it's false ?

> What if a Maradona
> Wikipedia entry said that he was mainly a drug addict?

It does not. He was or became a drug addict but first of all was a
gigantic football player. And yes, aside of his brilliant moments on
the field he was quite an embarrassment in many ways.

> I saw Kohler do worse things than Gentile

Did he become world champion by doing them ?

> And there have been many
> Spanish players as dirty or worse than Gentile, Football in Spain is
> rougher than in Italy, on average.

Same question, did they become world champion by doing them ? ;)
SMT
2008-06-19 00:08:24 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 7:46 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:
> > I saw Kohler do worse things than Gentile
>
> Did he become world champion by doing them ?
>
> > And there have been many
> > Spanish players as dirty or worse than Gentile, Football in Spain is
> > rougher than in Italy, on average.
>
> Same question, did they become world champion by doing them ? ;)

Stiles did, for example. This discussion has now apparently veered
into thugs who won the WC... what is the relevance of that? My point
is that you are singling out Gentile because he close marked Maradona
and was harsh on him. The guy who most hurt Maradona is Spanish, you
should know about him, he's famous as a legbreaker.

But it seems useless to follow a logical chain of reasoning here. Your
point that Italians are rougher and cheat more than other players has
no real basis. Bringing up Gentile is not a basis. Why don't you say
that the English are dirty and cheat on the basis of Nobby Stiles? It
would be just as ridiculous and off the point. General accusations
such as you make need verification, not anecdotal evidence based on
one player who coud be rough. Is Germany a nation cheating footballers
because Rudi Völler was a dirty cheat? Of course not. For something
like what you say to be true, it needs to be a general feature, and it
is not. Same with Italy.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-19 11:00:40 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 18, 7:46�pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
> > > I saw Kohler do worse things than Gentile
> >
> > Did he become world champion by doing them ?
> >
> > > And there have been many
> > > Spanish players as dirty or worse than Gentile, Football in Spain is
> > > rougher than in Italy, on average.
> >
> > Same question, did they become world champion by doing them ? ;)
>
> Stiles did, for example. This discussion has now apparently veered
> into thugs who won the WC... what is the relevance of that?

This *is* the very point. Italians win tournaments by dirty methods,
much more than any other country. Gentile is the perfect example.

> My point
> is that you are singling out Gentile because he close marked Maradona
> and was harsh on him.

*And* got away with it and became world champion. And not just
Maradona, Zico as well. 2 all-time greats in a row, this must be a
record by itself.

I don't know about Stiles, he was before my time as I get it, but I
don't think there can be a comparison. As for Voller - come on. Are
you really saying his cheating in WCup 90 is comparable to Gentile's ?
I for one don't even remember him cheating back then, just as an
excellent forward.

You keep missing the point and talking about other things, and I think
it's quite obviously because you can't argue on the point. Which is
actually quite simple and pretty obvious.
BreaKBeaT®
2008-06-19 11:45:37 UTC
Permalink
"FairFootball" <***@domainsbyproxy.com> ha
> I don't know about Stiles, he was before my time as I get it, but I
> don't think there can be a comparison. As for Voller - come on. Are
> yuo really saying his cheating in WCup 90 is comparable to Gentile's ?
> I for one don't even remember him cheating back then, just as an
> excellent forward.

We have seen him here in Italy for many, many years and imho he was
definetely a diver, exactly like some of the italian players you despise so
much. And the same is true for Jurgen Klinsmann. He was a specialist in
dramatizing every contact. And what about Hugo Sanchez of Real Madrid? Never
mentioned so far: imho he was the biggest diver ever. I don't know what the
spanish press wrote about him when he was one of the deadliest strikers in
the world...

Maybe it's true that in Italy players (or latin countries players, in
general) dive more than in PL o in the Scottish League, on average. Why?
Imho just because the referees whistle lighter contacts than in England or
in Scotland.
The referee's standards mold the players, some way. We have seen lot of
foreign players coming in italy and "learn" to dive, maybe we could consider
it as an evidence of the referee's factor.

Keeping it to today football: imho one of the dirtest players (or THE
dirtest) in contemporary football is Poulsen of Denmark. Luckily he isn't
italian otherwise we would have dozen of threads talking about him, i guess.

Imho you have some reason but you are a little biased too.

About spanish mass-medias...
I really appreciate the country and the people but their sports press, let
me say it, is complete, total, utter rubbish, especially Marca. On this
subject I agree with SMT.
FairFootball
2008-06-19 17:09:28 UTC
Permalink
BreaKBeaT® wrote:
> "FairFootball" <***@domainsbyproxy.com> ha
> > I don't know about Stiles, he was before my time as I get it, but I
> > don't think there can be a comparison. As for Voller - come on. Are
> > yuo really saying his cheating in WCup 90 is comparable to Gentile's ?
> > I for one don't even remember him cheating back then, just as an
> > excellent forward.
>
> We have seen him here in Italy for many, many years and imho he was
> definetely a diver, exactly like some of the italian players you despise so
> much...

I don't want to go into this, it's way too complicated and not very
relevant. I only care about how they won their world cups. And I
really don't think anybody with a bit of common sense can compare
Germany 90 with Italy 82 (or 06 for that matter).

> Imho you have some reason but you are a little biased too.
>
I suppose I have to thank you for this. Looks like a balanced opinion,
especially coming from an italian (I guess).
SMT
2008-06-19 15:04:08 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 7:00 am, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:
> SMT wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 7:46�pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > I saw Kohler do worse things than Gentile
>
> > > Did he become world champion by doing them ?

Well, yes.

>
> > > > And there have been many
> > > > Spanish players as dirty or worse than Gentile, Football in Spain is
> > > > rougher than in Italy, on average.
>
> > > Same question, did they become world champion by doing them ? ;)

Irrelevant, Spain does not win world championships...

>
> > Stiles did, for example. This discussion has now apparently veered
> > into thugs who won the WC... what is the relevance of that?
>
> This *is* the very point. Italians win tournaments by dirty methods,
> much more than any other country. Gentile is the perfect example.

What were the dirty methods in 2006, which is recent? What dirty
methods has Italy applied so far in Euro 2008? SInce in your opinion
these methods are endemic AND unique to Italy, you should have no
problem coming up with a good list.

> > My point
> > is that you are singling out Gentile because he close marked Maradona
> > and was harsh on him.
>
> *And* got away with it and became world champion. And not just
> Maradona, Zico as well. 2 all-time greats in a row, this must be a
> record by itself.

I can't follow you here. Dirty is dirty. What does it matter whether
you win or lose?

> I don't know about Stiles, he was before my time as I get it, but I
> don't think there can be a comparison. As for Voller - come on. Are
> you really saying his cheating in WCup 90 is comparable to Gentile's ?
> I for one don't even remember him cheating back then, just as an
> excellent forward.
>

Go to the FIFA website and watch the old games of England from 1966.
Or if you have access, watch old games of MU. Stiles was a thug,
recognized as such by English fans AND much appreciated for it. Today,
John Terry is appreciated for it, too. Are you telling me that Terry
is cleaner than Gentile? Please... As to Rudi Völler, he was a dirty
bastard, known as such by anyone who watched the game with any
regularity.

> You keep missing the point and talking about other things, and I think
> it's quite obviously because you can't argue on the point. Which is
> actually quite simple and pretty obvious.

It wasn't obvious until you declared it so. You argue by definition.
First you define that Italy, meaning any Italian national team, is
dirty, it cheats, etc. Then, based on your definition, you find that
indeed they are what you a priori defined them to be. And you expect
anyone to buy that fallacious argument?

Best,

SMT
Enzo
2008-06-19 15:10:59 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 11:04 am, SMT <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 19, 7:00 am, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
>
> > SMT wrote:
> > > On Jun 18, 7:46�pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > I saw Kohler do worse things than Gentile
>
> > > > Did he become world champion by doing them ?
>
> Well, yes.
>
>
>
> > > > > And there have been many
> > > > > Spanish players as dirty or worse than Gentile, Football in Spain is
> > > > > rougher than in Italy, on average.
>
> > > > Same question, did they become world champion by doing them ? ;)
>
> Irrelevant, Spain does not win world championships...
>

This is slightly off topic, but do you ever have anything
postive to say about Spain or Spanish football ?

>
>
> > > Stiles did, for example. This discussion has now apparently veered
> > > into thugs who won the WC... what is the relevance of that?
>
> > This *is* the very point. Italians win tournaments by dirty methods,
> > much more than any other country. Gentile is the perfect example.
>
> What were the dirty methods in 2006, which is recent? What dirty
> methods has Italy applied so far in Euro 2008? SInce in your opinion
> these methods are endemic AND unique to Italy, you should have no
> problem coming up with a good list.
>
> > > My point
> > > is that you are singling out Gentile because he close marked Maradona
> > > and was harsh on him.
>
> > *And* got away with it and became world champion. And not just
> > Maradona, Zico as well. 2 all-time greats in a row, this must be a
> > record by itself.
>
> I can't follow you here. Dirty is dirty. What does it matter whether
> you win or lose?
>
> > I don't know about Stiles, he was before my time as I get it, but I
> > don't think there can be a comparison. As for Voller - come on. Are
> > you really saying his cheating in WCup 90 is comparable to Gentile's ?
> > I for one don't even remember him cheating back then, just as an
> > excellent forward.
>
> Go to the FIFA website and watch the old games of England from 1966.
> Or if you have access, watch old games of MU. Stiles was a thug,
> recognized as such by English fans AND much appreciated for it. Today,
> John Terry is appreciated for it, too. Are you telling me that Terry
> is cleaner than Gentile? Please... As to Rudi Völler, he was a dirty
> bastard, known as such by anyone who watched the game with any
> regularity.
>
> > You keep missing the point and talking about other things, and I think
> > it's quite obviously because you can't argue on the point. Which is
> > actually quite simple and pretty obvious.
>
> It wasn't obvious until you declared it so. You argue by definition.
> First you define that Italy, meaning any Italian national team, is
> dirty, it cheats, etc. Then, based on your definition, you find that
> indeed they are what you a priori defined them to be.  And you expect
> anyone to buy that fallacious argument?
>
> Best,
>
> SMT
SMT
2008-06-19 15:21:28 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 11:10 am, Enzo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> > Irrelevant, Spain does not win world championships...
>
> This is slightly off topic, but do you ever have anything
> postive to say about Spain or Spanish football ?

Of course, I love the Liga, especially when Barcelona is going strong.
I especially love it when there is a pack of 5 or 6 teams that are all
competitive. It makes the games unpredictable. About Spain, I have
many positive things to say, but I exercise modesty. This is not a
forum for national exaltation. And, as somebody pointed out already,
we are a complicated kingdom with many parts and factions inside it,
not an easy situation and not something that would be of interest or
even make much sense to outsiders. España es diferente... and it's
true.

Now concretely about Spanish football at the national level: I think
it could do with a really good foreign coach who was allowed to do a
proper job, without a lot of noise. But then noise is one problem we
do have. Noise and drama, we like it! I say foreign so that he would
not be so subject to the pressures, that he would be better able to
ignore the constant blabbering and gossip.

Best,

SMT
MH
2008-06-19 16:00:28 UTC
Permalink
FairFootball wrote:
>
> SMT wrote:
>
>>On Jun 18, 7:46�pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>I saw Kohler do worse things than Gentile
>>>
>>>Did he become world champion by doing them ?
>>>
>>>
>>>>And there have been many
>>>>Spanish players as dirty or worse than Gentile, Football in Spain is
>>>>rougher than in Italy, on average.
>>>
>>>Same question, did they become world champion by doing them ? ;)
>>
>>Stiles did, for example. This discussion has now apparently veered
>>into thugs who won the WC... what is the relevance of that?
>
>
> This *is* the very point. Italians win tournaments by dirty methods,
> much more than any other country. Gentile is the perfect example.
>
>
>>My point
>>is that you are singling out Gentile because he close marked Maradona
>>and was harsh on him.
>
>
> *And* got away with it and became world champion.

As did Kohler and Buchwald, and Stiles, and quite a few other hard men.

And not just
> Maradona, Zico as well. 2 all-time greats in a row, this must be a
> record by itself.
>
> I don't know about Stiles, he was before my time as I get it, but I
> don't think there can be a comparison.

There can be. Stiles is portrayed as likeable in the English press, and
in a way he was, but he was a thug on the pitch.

As for Voller - come on. Are
> you really saying his cheating in WCup 90 is comparable to Gentile's ?

Völler was an absolute thug and cheat as a forward. Got away with a
ridiculous number of key fouls that led to Germany scoring (eg. vs.
scotland in 1986).

> I for one don't even remember him cheating back then, just as an
> excellent forward.
>
> You keep missing the point and talking about other things, and I think
> it's quite obviously because you can't argue on the point. Which is
> actually quite simple and pretty obvious.

Since Daniele has shown that Italy does not get called for more fouls
than other teams, your premise must be that they get away with fouls
more than other teams. How can you possibly prove that?
Bob
2008-06-19 17:33:33 UTC
Permalink
MH wrote:
> Since Daniele has shown that Italy does not get called for more fouls
> than other teams, your premise must be that they get away with fouls
> more than other teams. How can you possibly prove that?

It'd be an enormous undertaking, perhaps impossible to do with satisfying
probability if the sample is low. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if there
were existing models since these games must be thoroughly studied.

As for the issue of fouls, one can either try to get away with fouling
and/or give the appearance one has been fouled. I don't have an answer but
players do both.
JK
2008-06-19 14:52:57 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:

And there have been many
> Spanish players as dirty or worse than Gentile, Football in Spain is
> rougher than in Italy, on average.

Nadal on line 1!
Enzo
2008-06-19 13:59:00 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 6:24 pm, SMT <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 18, 6:01 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
>
> > They do defend better than other teams but they also are dirtier,
> > That's my view and it stays. I can direct you to the WCup 06 page of
> > my site if you want some hard facts. As for 82, from what I know,
> > heard and personally saw it was in no small part based on their
> > defenders, most notably Gentile.
>
> Scirea and Gentile put on a fantastic defense. As to Maradona being
> annihilated, he did take some hard ones man to man with Gentile,
> including a terrible one, but Maradona was also a crybaby and a diver.

You are wrong there, my friend. Maradona was kicked into the
stands by the Italians, and also, I am afraid, the Brasilians.
It is fantastic if kicking a person on the heels is fantastic.
You a fan of Goeketxea?


> He thought himself a prima donna who shouldn't be touched. Years ago,
> I heard Franz Beckenbauer make the same comment, that football is a
> manly sport and that those who don't like close marking should find
> something else to do.
>
> Best,
>
> SMT
SMT
2008-06-19 14:16:56 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 9:59 am, Enzo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> You are wrong there, my friend. Maradona was kicked into the
> stands by the Italians, and also, I am afraid, the Brasilians.
> It is fantastic if kicking a person on the heels is fantastic.
> You a fan of Goeketxea?

No, I am not a fan of any thug's. This whole business of thugs was not
brought up by me. What I said is that Gentile is not representative of
Italian football in general, just like Goiko is not representative of
Spanish football. What was being discussed was the supposed general
dirtiness and secret tricks applied by Italians (apparently, always,
and to the detriment of everybody who played against them for seven
and a half decades...). I object to the characterization. It is
patently false. That was the topic of discussion, not Claudio Gentile
and other thugs.

Best,

SMT
Enzo
2008-06-19 15:01:05 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 10:16 am, SMT <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 19, 9:59 am, Enzo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You are wrong there, my friend. Maradona was kicked into the
> > stands by the Italians, and also, I am afraid, the Brasilians.
> > It is fantastic if kicking a person on the heels is fantastic.
> > You a fan of Goeketxea?
>
> No, I am not a fan of any thug's. This whole business of thugs was not
> brought up by me. What I said is that Gentile is not representative of
> Italian football in general, just like Goiko is not representative of
> Spanish football. What was being discussed was the supposed general
> dirtiness and secret tricks applied by Italians (apparently, always,
> and to the detriment of everybody who played against them for seven
> and a half decades...). I object to the characterization. It is
> patently false. That was the topic of discussion, not Claudio Gentile
> and other thugs.
>
> Best,
>
> SMT

The point FF is making is that Italy have won WCs with
significant contributions from people like Gentile,
while all Goiko did for Spain was .... nothing.
Benny
2008-06-19 15:05:31 UTC
Permalink
> Subject : Sid Lowe on Spanish views on Italy
> From : ***@yahoo.com

> The point FF is making is that Italy have won WCs with
> significant contributions from people like Gentile,
> while all Goiko did for Spain was .... nothing.

Gentile was a dirty bastard but so was Nadal. Baresi and Hierro weren't
saints either. Fair Football has a clear bias against Italian football.
There's no point in trying to reason with idiots like him or Turd of War.


http://soccer-europe.com
Rss feed : http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml
Enzo
2008-06-19 15:06:59 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 11:05 am, Benny <***@soccer-europe.com> wrote:
>  > Subject : Sid Lowe on Spanish views on Italy
>  > From : ***@yahoo.com
>
>  > The point FF is making is that Italy have won WCs with
>  > significant contributions from people like Gentile,
>  > while all Goiko did for Spain was .... nothing.
>
> Gentile was a dirty bastard but so was Nadal. Baresi and Hierro weren't
> saints either. Fair Football has a clear bias against Italian football.
> There's no point in trying to reason with idiots like him or Turd of War.
>
>                                http://soccer-europe.com
>                      Rss feed :http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml

But Spain didnt win world cups with Nadal and Hierro.
Benny
2008-06-19 15:25:57 UTC
Permalink
> Subject : Sid Lowe on Spanish views on Italy
> From : ***@yahoo.com

> But Spain didnt win world cups with Nadal and Hierro.

That's because Spain's problems were usually at the other end of the
field - Raul and Julio Salinas in attack.


http://soccer-europe.com
Rss feed : http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml
SMT
2008-06-19 15:36:37 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 11:25 am, Benny <***@soccer-europe.com> wrote:
> > Subject : Sid Lowe on Spanish views on Italy
> > From : ***@yahoo.com
>
> > But Spain didnt win world cups with Nadal and Hierro.
>
> That's because Spain's problems were usually at the other end of the
> field - Raul and Julio Salinas in attack.

But this (the fact that Spain didn't win a WC) is immaterial to the
discussion. The point is the accusation that Italy has a special
monopoly on rough play, dirty tricks, cheating, etc., that it is worse
than everybody else in this respect. Why does nobody talk about the
Gravesens and the Toftings? Denmark is always clean because it doesn't
win the WC? Spain is clean for the same reason? England is clean
because some deluded English fans believe they have is a special code
of sportsmanship? Some of the tackles and shoves that are ordinarly
accepted in England would be considered violent play in Spain or in
Italy, for example. Has anybody watched the French league? There is a
lot of very rough physical play there, but nobody says anything.

The point is to tell the truth, not to perpetuate stereotypes that
don't hold up. If the Spanish press were to say that Italy defends
well, that once they score against you you're probably in for it, it
would be acceptable. But they are implying or even saying overtly that
Italy is not a fair opponent, that if they win, that win will somehow
not be legitimate. That's a bad attitude, it's self-delusion. And it
does nothing to encourage Spain to play better, to do its thing as
well as it can, which is the way to beat Italy or anybody else.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-19 16:17:21 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 11:25 am, Benny <***@soccer-europe.com> wrote:
> > > Subject : Sid Lowe on Spanish views on Italy
> > > From : ***@yahoo.com
> >
> > > But Spain didnt win world cups with Nadal and Hierro.
> >
> > That's because Spain's problems were usually at the other end of the
> > field - Raul and Julio Salinas in attack.
>
> But this (the fact that Spain didn't win a WC) is immaterial to the
> discussion. The point is the accusation that Italy has a special
> monopoly on rough play, dirty tricks, cheating, etc., that it is worse
> than everybody else in this respect. Why does nobody talk about the
> Gravesens and the Toftings? Denmark is always clean because it doesn't
> win the WC?

Nobody but you used the word "monopoly". I just said that Italy *is*
far worse that anybody else who win trophies. Yes of course it matters
more if Italy is dirty than if Denmark is, exactly because they are
also stronger. If Spain play Denmark and suffer a little fouling but
in the end win, nobody will care much about it. If Italy regularly
wins by means of the same dirty tricks of course Spain won't like this
and a lot of other people too.

Bottom line, you are saying there is no significant difference between
Italy and other WCup winners with respect of the amount of dirty
methods they've used, I say there is one, and the facts thoroughly
support this. WCup 82 is undeniable in this respect. That's all there
is to it. All those sophisms about "arguing by definition" are just
lame attempts to go around this simple point. I know a little
something about these things too. As for 2006, as I already said, go
to my site and see the web page about it if you want to.
SMT
2008-06-19 16:24:27 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 12:17 pm, FairFootball
<***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:

>
> Nobody but you used the word "monopoly". I just said that Italy *is*
> far worse that anybody else who win trophies. Yes of course it matters
> more if Italy is dirty than if Denmark is, exactly because they are
> also stronger. If Spain play Denmark and suffer a little fouling but
> in the end win, nobody will care much about it. If Italy regularly
> wins by means of the same dirty tricks of course Spain won't like this
> and a lot of other people too.

If you say Italy is far worse, go ahead and prove it. You haven't so
far. In fact, you can't -- because what you are asserting is not true.

>
> Bottom line, you are saying there is no significant difference between
> Italy and other WCup winners with respect of the amount of dirty
> methods they've used, I say there is one, and the facts thoroughly
> support this.

You have shown no evidence that there is a significant difference.


> All those sophisms about "arguing by definition" are just
> lame attempts to go around this simple point. I know a little
> something about these things too. As for 2006, as I already said, go
> to my site and see the web page about it if you want to.

I'm sorry, but you are the one practicing sophistry here. You assert
things without supporting them with evidence. Essentially, you are
doing the same thing as the Spanish press: using the "everybody knows"
non-argument.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-19 16:41:33 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 12:17 pm, FairFootball
> <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Nobody but you used the word "monopoly". I just said that Italy *is*
> > far worse that anybody else who win trophies. Yes of course it matters
> > more if Italy is dirty than if Denmark is, exactly because they are
> > also stronger. If Spain play Denmark and suffer a little fouling but
> > in the end win, nobody will care much about it. If Italy regularly
> > wins by means of the same dirty tricks of course Spain won't like this
> > and a lot of other people too.
>
> If you say Italy is far worse, go ahead and prove it. You haven't so
> far. In fact, you can't -- because what you are asserting is not true.

OK, now at least you're talking straight.
But I have. For 82 one word is enough: Gentile. In retrospect it seems
unbelievable that he was allowed to do what he did for 2 consecutive
games against arguably the world's biggest football powers of the
moment and get away with it. I suspect he was the very reason why
refereeing and the whole business of yellow / red cards became what it
is today. For 2006, go to my site.

> > All those sophisms about "arguing by definition" are just
> > lame attempts to go around this simple point. I know a little
> > something about these things too. As for 2006, as I already said, go
> > to my site and see the web page about it if you want to.
>
> I'm sorry, but you are the one practicing sophistry here. You assert
> things without supporting them with evidence.

That's not sophistry, that's at most unsupported argumentation (or
whatever it's called). Sophistry is what you did, complicating things
to go around a simple point. Let's not argue about this though since
you seem to have stopped doing it.
SMT
2008-06-19 16:46:22 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 12:41 pm, FairFootball
<***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
> SMT wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 12:17 pm, FairFootball
> > <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
>
> > > Nobody but you used the word "monopoly". I just said that Italy *is*
> > > far worse that anybody else who win trophies. Yes of course it matters
> > > more if Italy is dirty than if Denmark is, exactly because they are
> > > also stronger. If Spain play Denmark and suffer a little fouling but
> > > in the end win, nobody will care much about it. If Italy regularly
> > > wins by means of the same dirty tricks of course Spain won't like this
> > > and a lot of other people too.
>
> > If you say Italy is far worse, go ahead and prove it. You haven't so
> > far. In fact, you can't -- because what you are asserting is not true.
>
> OK, now at least you're talking straight.
> But I have. For 82 one word is enough: Gentile. In retrospect it seems
> unbelievable that he was allowed to do what he did for 2 consecutive
> games against arguably the world's biggest football powers of the
> moment and get away with it. I suspect he was the very reason why
> refereeing and the whole business of yellow / red cards became what it
> is today. For 2006, go to my site.

I don't need to. I watched the tournament.

>
> That's not sophistry, that's at most unsupported argumentation (or
> whatever it's called). Sophistry is what you did, complicating things
> to go around a simple point. Let's not argue about this though since
> you seem to have stopped doing it.


Look, I was there at the 1982 World Cup. Everybody but you accepts
that Italy was a fair winner in the field. And if you want to declare
victories invalid because teams have a thug or a cheat, then no win is
ever valid.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-19 16:59:55 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 12:41 pm, FairFootball
> <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
> > SMT wrote:
> > > On Jun 19, 12:17 pm, FairFootball
> > > <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Nobody but you used the word "monopoly". I just said that Italy *is*
> > > > far worse that anybody else who win trophies. Yes of course it matters
> > > > more if Italy is dirty than if Denmark is, exactly because they are
> > > > also stronger. If Spain play Denmark and suffer a little fouling but
> > > > in the end win, nobody will care much about it. If Italy regularly
> > > > wins by means of the same dirty tricks of course Spain won't like this
> > > > and a lot of other people too.
> >
> > > If you say Italy is far worse, go ahead and prove it. You haven't so
> > > far. In fact, you can't -- because what you are asserting is not true.
> >
> > OK, now at least you're talking straight.
> > But I have. For 82 one word is enough: Gentile. In retrospect it seems
> > unbelievable that he was allowed to do what he did for 2 consecutive
> > games against arguably the world's biggest football powers of the
> > moment and get away with it. I suspect he was the very reason why
> > refereeing and the whole business of yellow / red cards became what it
> > is today. For 2006, go to my site.
>
> I don't need to. I watched the tournament.
>
I'm sorry that this is your approach. I really think it might change
your opinion. It *is* indeed abundantly evident if one looks at the
details (and is open-minded enough). But then, if that's how you want
to do it, it's your loss.

> Look, I was there at the 1982 World Cup. Everybody but you accepts
> that Italy was a fair winner in the field.

I think this is a gross exaggeration.

> And if you want to declare
> victories invalid because teams have a thug or a cheat, then no win is
> ever valid.

You start again going around the point. :-) They don't have nearly as
much over-all relevance as they did for Italy.
Bob
2008-06-19 17:03:49 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 12:41 pm, FairFootball
> <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
>> became what it is today. For 2006, go to my site.
>
> I don't need to. I watched the tournament.

and you still keep claiming Materazzi didn't foul Malouda in the final,
which gives an indication of your need to buy glasses or your failure to
argue in good faith.
SMT
2008-06-19 17:19:56 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 1:03 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
> SMT wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 12:41 pm, FairFootball
> > <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
> >> became what it is today. For 2006, go to my site.
>
> > I don't need to. I watched the tournament.
>
> and you still keep claiming Materazzi didn't foul Malouda in the final,
> which gives an indication of your need to buy glasses or your failure to
> argue in good faith.


Malouda's diving and Zidane's aggression cannot be attributed to
Italy. They cannot even be attributed to Gentle Marco Materazzi.
ZIdane had the option not to headbutt Gentle Marco and Malouda the
option of not behaving like a fragile ballerina (great player, but he
is a consumate diver).

Best,

SMT
Bob
2008-06-19 17:43:25 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 1:03 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>> SMT wrote:
>>> On Jun 19, 12:41 pm, FairFootball
>>> <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
>>>> became what it is today. For 2006, go to my site.
>>
>>> I don't need to. I watched the tournament.
>>
>> and you still keep claiming Materazzi didn't foul Malouda in the
>> final, which gives an indication of your need to buy glasses or your
>> failure to argue in good faith.
>
>
> Malouda's diving and Zidane's aggression cannot be attributed to
> Italy. They cannot even be attributed to Gentle Marco Materazzi.
> ZIdane had the option not to headbutt Gentle Marco and Malouda the
> option of not behaving like a fragile ballerina (great player, but he
> is a consumate diver).

Enjoy looking ridiculous: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0
SMT
2008-06-19 17:55:13 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 1:43 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:

>
> Enjoy looking ridiculous:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0

Terrific view of this blatant dive. The referee sure got taken in...
Marco Materazzi knew this guy was a fragile ballerina, look at how he
stays away. This was highway robbery.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-19 18:01:07 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 1:43 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Enjoy looking ridiculous:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0
>
> Terrific view of this blatant dive. The referee sure got taken in...
> Marco Materazzi knew this guy was a fragile ballerina, look at how he
> stays away. This was highway robbery.
>
> Best,
>
> SMT

It's called tripping. It's in the rules book.
Bob
2008-06-19 18:27:46 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 1:43 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Enjoy looking ridiculous:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0
>
> Terrific view of this blatant dive. The referee sure got taken in...
> Marco Materazzi knew this guy was a fragile ballerina, look at how he
> stays away. This was highway robbery.

Your bad faith or your urgent need of glasses is blatant and I am not sure
how you figure it will reflect on the rest of your posting in this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0

I have offered to you and others a sizable bet since day one that it was a
100% legit pk. I am still waiting for a taker.
SMT
2008-06-19 19:01:02 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 2:27 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:

>
> Your bad faith or your urgent need of glasses is blatant and I am not sure
> how you figure it will reflect on the rest of your posting in this thread:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0
>
> I have offered to you and others a sizable bet since day one that it was a
> 100% legit pk. I am still waiting for a taker.

I do not bet, ever. In any case, the dive was rewarded with a penalty.
What is your point regarding Italian cheating? What was the cheating?
Surely you're not claiming that Materazzi cheated France, are you?

Best,

SMT
Bob
2008-06-19 20:03:42 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 2:27 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Your bad faith or your urgent need of glasses is blatant and I am
>> not sure
>> how you figure it will reflect on the rest of your posting in this
>> thread:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0
>>
>> I have offered to you and others a sizable bet since day one that it
>> was a 100% legit pk. I am still waiting for a taker.
>
> I do not bet, ever.

I have never betted but it isn't per chance that nobody is willing to take a
bet I started advertising 2 years ago.


> In any case, the dive was rewarded with a penalty.
> What is your point regarding Italian cheating? What was the cheating?
> Surely you're not claiming that Materazzi cheated France, are you?

LOL your attempt to spin out of trouble is laughable but you are still
completely non-credible, which was the point I was making by showing you
either need glasses or that you are in bad faith. I tend to lean toward the
later.
SMT
2008-06-19 20:18:09 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 4:03 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:

>
> LOL your attempt to spin out of trouble is laughable but you are still
> completely non-credible, which was the point I was making by showing you
> either need glasses or that you are in bad faith. I tend to lean toward the
> later.

This is not about credibility but about the topic we're discussing,
which is not Malouda's dive but the perception that Italy are
cheaters.

Best,

SMT
Bob
2008-06-19 20:40:14 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 4:03 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> LOL your attempt to spin out of trouble is laughable but you are
>> still completely non-credible, which was the point I was making by
>> showing you either need glasses or that you are in bad faith. I tend
>> to lean toward the later.
>
> This is not about credibility but about the topic we're discussing,
> which is not Malouda's dive but the perception that Italy are
> cheaters.

If you can't even acknowledge or see the bleeping obvious after 2 years of
being confronted with it how do you expect the rest of your comments on who
fouls who to be credible? To be honest, you sound like a biased hack of the
worst kind but you'd like to have your readers believe you are an
independent expert on fairplay.

It's probably safe to say you won't change you MO so let's forget about it.
FairFootball
2008-06-19 21:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:
> SMT wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 4:03 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> LOL your attempt to spin out of trouble is laughable but you are
> >> still completely non-credible, which was the point I was making by
> >> showing you either need glasses or that you are in bad faith. I tend
> >> to lean toward the later.
> >
> > This is not about credibility but about the topic we're discussing,
> > which is not Malouda's dive but the perception that Italy are
> > cheaters.
>
> If you can't even acknowledge or see the bleeping obvious after 2 years of
> being confronted with it how do you expect the rest of your comments on who
> fouls who to be credible?

I second this. This is probably the way most "diver" labels are put on
some players. Not that there aren't also those who dive, but many
times they're not and people think they are.
7h@ch
2008-06-19 21:08:23 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 5:03 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:
> Bob wrote:
> > SMT wrote:
> > > On Jun 19, 4:03 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>
> > >> LOL your attempt to spin out of trouble is laughable but you are
> > >> still completely non-credible, which was the point I was making by
> > >> showing you either need glasses or that you are in bad faith. I tend
> > >> to lean toward the later.
>
> > > This is not about credibility but about the topic we're discussing,
> > > which is not Malouda's dive but the perception that Italy are
> > > cheaters.
>
> > If you can't even acknowledge or see the bleeping obvious after 2 years of
> > being confronted with it how do you expect the rest of your comments on who
> > fouls who to be credible?
>
> I second this. This is probably the way most "diver" labels are put on
> some players. Not that there aren't also those who dive, but many
> times they're not and people think they are.

Malouda isn't a diver? I'm pleased to direct you to a meeting between
Chelsea and Liverpool early last season.
FairFootball
2008-06-19 21:12:42 UTC
Permalink
***@ch wrote:
> On Jun 19, 5:03 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
> > Bob wrote:
> > > SMT wrote:
> > > > On Jun 19, 4:03 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >> LOL your attempt to spin out of trouble is laughable but you are
> > > >> still completely non-credible, which was the point I was making by
> > > >> showing you either need glasses or that you are in bad faith. I tend
> > > >> to lean toward the later.
> >
> > > > This is not about credibility but about the topic we're discussing,
> > > > which is not Malouda's dive but the perception that Italy are
> > > > cheaters.
> >
> > > If you can't even acknowledge or see the bleeping obvious after 2 years of
> > > being confronted with it how do you expect the rest of your comments on who
> > > fouls who to be credible?
> >
> > I second this. This is probably the way most "diver" labels are put on
> > some players. Not that there aren't also those who dive, but many
> > times they're not and people think they are.
>
> Malouda isn't a diver? I'm pleased to direct you to a meeting between
> Chelsea and Liverpool early last season.

I did not say this. Just that on this occasion he did not dive. Also
not in the UCL final, for that matter. Very similar situations.
MH
2008-06-19 20:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:
> SMT wrote:
>
>>On Jun 19, 2:27 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Your bad faith or your urgent need of glasses is blatant and I am
>>>not sure
>>>how you figure it will reflect on the rest of your posting in this
>>>thread:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0
>>>
>>>I have offered to you and others a sizable bet since day one that it
>>>was a 100% legit pk. I am still waiting for a taker.

Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?

As I have told you before, I initially thought this was a dive (and it
still looks like it from some angles), but can see that in some replays
(assuming they weren't doctored before posting to U-tube) it looks like
a perfectly justifiable penalty call.
But 100 % legit PK ? How do you decide that ? Ask 100 FIFA qualified
international referees (off the record) and I don't think you would
necessarily get unanimity. And I still believe the ref in this match
didn't give France a second, much more obvious, penalty in the second
half because he was afraid he had blown this first call. Is that 100 % ?

>>
>>I do not bet, ever.
>
>
> I have never betted but it isn't per chance that nobody is willing to take a
> bet I started advertising 2 years ago.
>
>
>
>>In any case, the dive was rewarded with a penalty.
>>What is your point regarding Italian cheating? What was the cheating?
>>Surely you're not claiming that Materazzi cheated France, are you?
>
>
> LOL your attempt to spin out of trouble is laughable but you are still
> completely non-credible, which was the point I was making by showing you
> either need glasses or that you are in bad faith. I tend to lean toward the
> later.
>
>
Futbolmetrix
2008-06-19 21:06:33 UTC
Permalink
"MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:***@ucalgary.ca...
>
> Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?

I also was curious about this. Maybe he was thinking of setting up an
independent panel made up of FairFootball, Florent Malouda, and Zinedine
Zidane's sister.

D
FairFootball
2008-06-19 21:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Futbolmetrix wrote:
> "MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
> news:***@ucalgary.ca...
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?
>
> I also was curious about this. Maybe he was thinking of setting up an
> independent panel made up of FairFootball, Florent Malouda, and Zinedine
> Zidane's sister.
>
> D

:-) I have to say, this is a good one. I had to laugh, even if the
idea behind it is lame.
Bob
2008-06-20 01:01:35 UTC
Permalink
FairFootball wrote:
> Futbolmetrix wrote:
>> "MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
>> news:***@ucalgary.ca...
>>>
>>> Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?
>>
>> I also was curious about this. Maybe he was thinking of setting up an
>> independent panel made up of FairFootball, Florent Malouda, and
>> Zinedine Zidane's sister.
>>
>> D
>
> :-) I have to say, this is a good one. I had to laugh, even if the
> idea behind it is lame.

I fail to see how it is lame to show not one of them will stand behind their
posturing on the internet. As for Daniele 4th grade level retort and
innuendos, it is a shame this all the comments we are likely to get from him
on this topic.
FairFootball
2008-06-20 01:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:
> FairFootball wrote:
> > Futbolmetrix wrote:
> >> "MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
> >> news:***@ucalgary.ca...
> >>>
> >>> Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?
> >>
> >> I also was curious about this. Maybe he was thinking of setting up an
> >> independent panel made up of FairFootball, Florent Malouda, and
> >> Zinedine Zidane's sister.
> >>
> >> D
> >
> > :-) I have to say, this is a good one. I had to laugh, even if the
> > idea behind it is lame.
>
> I fail to see how it is lame to show not one of them will stand behind their
> posturing on the internet. As for Daniele 4th grade level retort and
> innuendos, it is a shame this all the comments we are likely to get from him
> on this topic.

Come on, man, loosen up. We were just joking. After all it's a pretty
good Euro, there's no need to be this nervous about all this.
Bob
2008-06-20 02:10:27 UTC
Permalink
FairFootball wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>> FairFootball wrote:
>>> Futbolmetrix wrote:
>>>> "MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
>>>> news:***@ucalgary.ca...
>>>>>
>>>>> Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?
>>>>
>>>> I also was curious about this. Maybe he was thinking of setting up
>>>> an independent panel made up of FairFootball, Florent Malouda, and
>>>> Zinedine Zidane's sister.
>>>>
>>>> D
>>>
>>> :-) I have to say, this is a good one. I had to laugh, even if the
>>> idea behind it is lame.
>>
>> I fail to see how it is lame to show not one of them will stand
>> behind their posturing on the internet. As for Daniele 4th grade
>> level retort and innuendos, it is a shame this all the comments we
>> are likely to get from him on this topic.
>
> Come on, man, loosen up. We were just joking. After all it's a pretty
> good Euro, there's no need to be this nervous about all this.

I am not nervous at all. As a matter of fact I am having a grand old time,
not you?
7h@ch
2008-06-20 02:39:45 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 10:10 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
> FairFootball wrote:
> > Bob wrote:
> >> FairFootball wrote:
> >>> Futbolmetrix wrote:
> >>>> "MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
> >>>>news:***@ucalgary.ca...
>
> >>>>> Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?
>
> >>>> I also was curious about this. Maybe he was thinking of setting up
> >>>> an independent panel made up of FairFootball, Florent Malouda, and
> >>>> Zinedine Zidane's sister.
>
> >>>> D
>
> >>> :-) I have to say, this is a good one. I had to laugh, even if the
> >>> idea behind it is lame.
>
> >> I fail to see how it is lame to show not one of them will stand
> >> behind their posturing on the internet. As for Daniele 4th grade
> >> level retort and innuendos, it is a shame this all the comments we
> >> are likely to get from him on this topic.
>
> > Come on, man, loosen up. We were just joking. After all it's a pretty
> > good Euro, there's no need to be this nervous about all this.
>
> I am not nervous at all. As a matter of fact I am having a grand old time,
> not you?

Sounds to me he was having a good laugh with Futbolmetrix, despite
their differences.
Bob
2008-06-19 21:18:21 UTC
Permalink
MH wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?

I am not entirely sure. Initially I had suggested to poll the 50 or 100
(can't remember) last posters to this newsgroup before the start of the
world cup but seeing how many unabashedly biased characters regularly post
here that would be risky.

> As I have told you before, I initially thought this was a dive (and it
> still looks like it from some angles),

Really doubt that. Can you be more specific.

but can see that in some
> replays (assuming they weren't doctored before posting to U-tube)

come on ... I can guarantee you that clip isn't doctored. Malouda's foot
rotates upon contact and catches behind his other leg. It is crystal clear.
It was as clear the day of the match as it is now.

it
> looks like a perfectly justifiable penalty call.
> But 100 % legit PK ?

Let's say legit beyond any reasonnable doubt.

How do you decide that ? Ask 100 FIFA qualified
> international referees (off the record) and I don't think you would
> necessarily get unanimity.

I am completely confident the overwhelming majority would say Materazzi
tripped Malouda and it is a pk.

> And I still believe the ref in this match
> didn't give France a second, much more obvious, penalty

It does look like a pk too but I don't believe the available video is good
enough to be a as confident as for pk #1.

in the second
> half because he was afraid he had blown this first call. Is that 100
> % ?

I thought that may be some jackass told him at the half that he blew the
first call since it was what all the blowhards on TV were saying.
MH
2008-06-19 23:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:
> MH wrote:
>
>>Just out of curiosity, how would you decide who won the bet ?
>
>
> I am not entirely sure. Initially I had suggested to poll the 50 or 100
> (can't remember) last posters to this newsgroup before the start of the
> world cup but seeing how many unabashedly biased characters regularly post
> here that would be risky.
>

Everyone who posts here is at least a little bit biased. I cordially
dislike both France and Italy, for different reasons, so in this
particular instance I might even be closer to neutral than most !

Damned Mutu missing that penalty !

Anyway, and internet bet that can't be decided/verified is not worth
much - unlike the lacZ bet which I am STILL winning long after it
originally expired.




>
>>As I have told you before, I initially thought this was a dive (and it
>>still looks like it from some angles),
>
>
> Really doubt that. Can you be more specific.

All the replays I saw on my TV were unconvincing that it was a penalty.
I taped the match and replayed this many times, and was still not
convinced it was a penalty. It was only when people started to post
images to the web from different angles that I started to see your (and
their) point about Materazzi initially getting his foot out of the way
then extending it.

>
> but can see that in some
>
>>replays (assuming they weren't doctored before posting to U-tube)
>
I do assume they weren't doctored, but I could be wrong.

>
> come on ... I can guarantee you that clip isn't doctored.

Really ? How ? Where does it actually come from and who posted it.
The link you just sent to SMT is on a page with other links to things
like "Cannavaro attempts to murder Henry" and stuff like that, so the
context is suspicious.

And returning to bias , I don't recall (apologies if you did) that you
ever condemned Henry for his histrionics vs. Spain (should have been a
card for simulation or a video ban) , or Zidane for his attack on
Materazzi (and yes, Materazzi is a thug). As I said, none of us is
completely free of bias. We wouldn't bother to watch if we were.


Malouda's foot
> rotates upon contact and catches behind his other leg. It is crystal clear.
> It was as clear the day of the match as it is now.
>
> it
>
>>looks like a perfectly justifiable penalty call.
>>But 100 % legit PK ?
>
>
> Let's say legit beyond any reasonnable doubt.
>
> How do you decide that ? Ask 100 FIFA qualified
>
>>international referees (off the record) and I don't think you would
>>necessarily get unanimity.
>
>
> I am completely confident the overwhelming majority would say Materazzi
> tripped Malouda and it is a pk.
>
>
>>And I still believe the ref in this match
>>didn't give France a second, much more obvious, penalty
>
>
> It does look like a pk too but I don't believe the available video is good
> enough to be a as confident as for pk #1.
>
> in the second
>
>>half because he was afraid he had blown this first call. Is that 100
>>% ?
>
>
> I thought that may be some jackass told him at the half that he blew the
> first call since it was what all the blowhards on TV were saying.
>
>
>
The Dissociated Press
2008-06-20 00:24:39 UTC
Permalink
"MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:***@ucalgary.ca...
>
> The link you just sent to SMT is on a page with other links to things like
> "Cannavaro attempts to murder Henry" and stuff like that, so the context
> is suspicious.

Has anyone on that website contacted the police yet? Surely it is a
prosecutor's dream to have an attempted murder shown on international
television. A hundred million eyewitnesses....
Bob
2008-06-20 00:51:46 UTC
Permalink
MH wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>> I am not entirely sure. Initially I had suggested to poll the 50 or
>> 100 (can't remember) last posters to this newsgroup before the start
>> of the world cup but seeing how many unabashedly biased characters
>> regularly post here that would be risky.
>>
>
> Everyone who posts here is at least a little bit biased.

Sure, it is difficult not to be a little for one reason or another and I
encourage you to call me on it whenever I appear to be so.

I cordially
> dislike both France and Italy, for different reasons, so in this
> particular instance I might even be closer to neutral than most !

As I have acknowledged I am strongly francophile but I have no problem
supporting any team that shows exciting football and rooting against any
team that practice boring or anti-football.

>
> Damned Mutu missing that penalty !
>
> Anyway, and internet bet that can't be decided/verified is not worth
> much -

I think it is only your opinion that it can't be verified.

> unlike the lacZ bet which I am STILL winning long after it
> originally expired.
>>
>>> As I have told you before, I initially thought this was a dive (and
>>> it still looks like it from some angles),
>>
>>
>> Really doubt that. Can you be more specific.
>
> All the replays I saw on my TV were unconvincing that it was a
> penalty. I taped the match and replayed this many times, and was
> still not convinced it was a penalty.

I never had any trouble seeing it on my dvr on which I can slow it down
frame by frame. I don't even have high def. What kind of gear do you record
it on?

It was only when people
> started to post images to the web from different angles that I
> started to see your (and their) point about Materazzi initially
> getting his foot out of the way then extending it.
>
>>
>> but can see that in some
>>
>>> replays (assuming they weren't doctored before posting to U-tube)
>>
>> come on ... I can guarantee you that clip isn't doctored.
>
> Really ? How ? Where does it actually come from and who posted it.
> The link you just sent to SMT is on a page with other links to things
> like "Cannavaro attempts to murder Henry" and stuff like that, so the
> context is suspicious.

I can guarantee it because it is *exactly* what I see on my copy. The fact
the vid is on a page with other vids posted by other individuals isn't
really relevant no matter what the content of these clips might be (trolls
and what not). The poster has no control on that.

>
> And returning to bias , I don't recall (apologies if you did) that you
> ever condemned Henry for his histrionics vs. Spain (should have been a
> card for simulation or a video ban)

He should have gotten a card for simulating being hit in the head but it
wouldn't have changed anything to the ruling about a free kick against Spain
and a card for Puyol, which is what you and others where arguing.

, or Zidane for his attack on
> Materazzi (and yes, Materazzi is a thug). As I said, none of us is
> completely free of bias. We wouldn't bother to watch if we were.

Zidane got punished which I always said should happened but I also agreed
with Materazzi's being punished as warranted by the laws of the game, which
you didn't. I sincerely fail to see how I was biased.
7h@ch
2008-06-20 00:59:40 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 8:51 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:

> I think it is only your opinion that it can't be verified.

I thought that was a dive. Malouda has more than once fallen
convincingly by having his right leg kicking his left calf. But if you
insist, sure, that was a contentious play. I found it funny and
especially n00bish that you've tried to hammer what you believe down
others' throat in a rather intellectually dishonest way -- you accuse
those who disagreed of anti-French bias.

We all have our bias, but most regulars here are somewhat aware of
their own bias. You seem oblivious of your own.
Bob
2008-06-20 02:06:22 UTC
Permalink
***@ch wrote:
> On Jun 19, 8:51 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>
>> I think it is only your opinion that it can't be verified.
>
> I thought that was a dive. Malouda has more than once fallen
> convincingly by having his right leg kicking his left calf. But if you
> insist, sure, that was a contentious play. I found it funny and
> especially n00bish that you've tried to hammer what you believe down
> others' throat in a rather intellectually dishonest way -- you accuse
> those who disagreed of anti-French bias.
>
> We all have our bias, but most regulars here are somewhat aware of
> their own bias. You seem oblivious of your own.

And, besides gratuitous affirmations do you have any evidence to offer in
this discussion?
7h@ch
2008-06-20 02:38:30 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 10:06 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
> And, besides gratuitous affirmations do you have any evidence to offer in
> this discussion?

No I don't. I don't find anything beneficial in compiling clip of
Malouda's dives or have a concise record of those. But I'll let you
know next time he flops, which won't be long.
FairFootball
2008-06-20 00:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Someone should send that character Sid Lowe a link to this
discussion. ;-)
SMT
2008-06-20 00:53:34 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 8:50 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:
> Someone should send that character Sid Lowe a link to this
> discussion. ;-)


I'll let him know... but he already knows all this, I am sure.

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-20 00:59:41 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 19, 8:50 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
> > Someone should send that character Sid Lowe a link to this
> > discussion. ;-)
>
>
> I'll let him know... but he already knows all this, I am sure.
>
> Best,
>
> SMT

OK. Give him my best. :-)
FF
Bob
2008-06-20 00:57:06 UTC
Permalink
The Dissociated Press wrote:
> "MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote
>>
>> The link you just sent to SMT is on a page with other links to
>> things like "Cannavaro attempts to murder Henry" and stuff like
>> that, so the context is suspicious.
>
> Has anyone on that website contacted the police yet? Surely it is a
> prosecutor's dream to have an attempted murder shown on international
> television. A hundred million eyewitnesses....

The title of that vid is stupid and decredibilize its author but it is
doesn't change the fact that Canavarro deliberately set a basketball pick on
Henry. I have shown in this forum that Canavarro seem to use basketball
picks fairly routinely against forwards moving into space.
The Dissociated Press
2008-06-20 01:29:22 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote in message
news:***@comcast.com...
> The Dissociated Press wrote:
>> "MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote
>>>
>>> The link you just sent to SMT is on a page with other links to
>>> things like "Cannavaro attempts to murder Henry" and stuff like
>>> that, so the context is suspicious.
>>
>> Has anyone on that website contacted the police yet? Surely it is a
>> prosecutor's dream to have an attempted murder shown on international
>> television. A hundred million eyewitnesses....
>
> The title of that vid is stupid and decredibilize its author but it is
> doesn't change the fact that Canavarro deliberately set a basketball pick
> on
> Henry. I have shown in this forum that Canavarro seem to use basketball
> picks fairly routinely against forwards moving into space.

A defender is entitled to occupy space. Cannavaro merely has a knack for
reaching a valuable space before the opposing player does. I'd call it smart
defence. And Henry tends to be so single-minded about driving toward goal
that you could expect him to heedlessly collide with an army tank if one got
in the way.
Bob
2008-06-20 02:02:50 UTC
Permalink
The Dissociated Press wrote:
> "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote in message
> news:***@comcast.com...
>> The Dissociated Press wrote:
>>> "MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote
>>>>
>>>> The link you just sent to SMT is on a page with other links to
>>>> things like "Cannavaro attempts to murder Henry" and stuff like
>>>> that, so the context is suspicious.
>>>
>>> Has anyone on that website contacted the police yet? Surely it is a
>>> prosecutor's dream to have an attempted murder shown on
>>> international television. A hundred million eyewitnesses....
>>
>> The title of that vid is stupid and decredibilize its author but it
>> is doesn't change the fact that Canavarro deliberately set a
>> basketball pick on
>> Henry. I have shown in this forum that Canavarro seem to use
>> basketball picks fairly routinely against forwards moving into space.
>
> A defender is entitled to occupy space. Cannavaro merely has a knack
> for reaching a valuable space before the opposing player does. I'd
> call it smart defence. And Henry tends to be so single-minded about
> driving toward goal that you could expect him to heedlessly collide
> with an army tank if one got in the way.

Unfortunately for you refs don't see it the way you do. You so-called "smart
defence" amounts to moving into a space with no intention of playing the
ball but to obstruct the forward progress of an opponent.
SMT
2008-06-19 17:09:34 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 1:03 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
> SMT wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 12:41 pm, FairFootball
> > <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
> >> became what it is today. For 2006, go to my site.
>
> > I don't need to. I watched the tournament.
>
> and you still keep claiming Materazzi didn't foul Malouda in the final,
> which gives an indication of your need to buy glasses or your failure to
> argue in good faith.


Malouda's diving, like ZIdane's aggression, cannot be attributed to
Italy. They cannot even be attributed to Marco Materazzi. Malouda was
not made to dive and ZIdane had the option of not headbutting Gentle
Marco.

Best,

SMT
SMT
2008-06-19 15:08:18 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 11:01 am, Enzo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> The point FF is making is that Italy have won WCs with
> significant contributions from people like Gentile,
> while all Goiko did for Spain was .... nothing.

And England with significant contributions by Stiles, and Germany with
significant contributions by various thuggish players and divers, and
Brazil with Dunga (a systematic fouler), and so on. What is the
conclusion here? Surely not that Italy has some monopoly on tricks...

Best,

SMT
s***@gmail.com
2008-06-19 08:46:22 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 8:01 am, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:
> SMT wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 5:32 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > To complete this view, I must say they are indeed in the top of
> > > footballing nations, nobody says they don't know football. But they do
> > > also take some edge over others from the "dark side", in my view at
> > > least. I must say, I think this view is solidly supported by facts.
> > > Quick, what's the name of the most dirty and rough defender that ever
> > > played ? (At least in recent times in top football. Hint: he was
> > > champion with Italy in 82, and his name is an oxymoron ;) .)
>
> > Gentile? He was a vigorous defender, not by any means in the running
> > for dirtiest defender that ever played, not even close... Er, have you
> > watched Ricardo Carvalho, Fabi�n Ayala, Walter Samuel, Heinze before
> > he reformed, Briegel?
>
> This is from his wikipedia page:
>
> "One of the toughest and roughest defenders in the history of the
> game, Gentile was a key part of both the World Cup winning Italy team
> of 1982, and the success of Juventus of the period."
>
> I can't say I personally watched him or the others you mentioned very
> much

Wait, you haven't personally watched him, yet you claim by fact he is
the dirtiest defender in the game. You don't have statistics, but you
say that this must be true by virtue of wikipedia, a site updated by
anyone with an internet connection, has the following; "one of the
toughest and roughest defenders in the historyof the game," which you
further extrapolate at the "dirtiest of all time", and you tell us you
don't hate Italy?
j***@gmail.com
2008-06-18 22:51:55 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 5:32 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:

> They don't necessarily foul more than other nations, that's
> simplistic. They just gain more advantage of it. Probably also foul
> more than top nations in top phases of competitions, say Holland,
> Germany, Spain at least, probably also Brazil. I don't have statistics

From 2006:

Final: France 24 fouls committed, Italy 17
Semifinal: Germany 21 Italy 19
Quarterfinal: Ukraine 31 Italy 15
Second Round: Australia 26 Italy 17
Isaac J.
2008-06-18 23:01:17 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:51:55 -0700 (PDT), ***@gmail.com wrote:

> Final: France 24 fouls committed, Italy 17

Final: France 0 bribes committed, Italy 7 :)
SMT
2008-06-18 23:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Isaac J. wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:51:55 -0700 (PDT), ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Final: France 24 fouls committed, Italy 17
>
> Final: France 0 bribes committed, Italy 7 :)

Italy: Sisters mentioned by thug: 1
France: Headbutts by thug: 1

Best,

SMT
s***@gmail.com
2008-06-19 08:48:41 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 9:01 am, "Isaac J." <***@privacy.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:51:55 -0700 (PDT), ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > Final: France 24 fouls committed, Italy 17
>
> Final: France 0 bribes committed, Italy 7 :)

France 23 sore losers
Italy 0
MH
2008-06-19 16:07:51 UTC
Permalink
***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 19, 9:01 am, "Isaac J." <***@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:51:55 -0700 (PDT), ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Final: France 24 fouls committed, Italy 17
>>
>>Final: France 0 bribes committed, Italy 7 :)
>
>
> France 23 sore losers

They do tend to be.


> Italy 0

But then so do Italy - when they lose as in 2004 and 2002, for example.

The English, Dutch and Portugese are also pretty poor losers based on
recent history.



>
s***@gmail.com
2008-06-19 08:41:52 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 7:32 am, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:
> SMT wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 5:14 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > I don't know about "real football", but their play *is* cynical and
> > > dirty. To take a quote from the spanish press, "The Italians, declares
> > > this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
> > > other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games and
> > > subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
> > > Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose all
> > > over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
> > > quarter-final" . Now, call me out of touch with "real football" but I
> > > can't see any mistake in what they say. By "subterranean play" I guess
> > > they mean their knowledge of fouling and getting away with it. And
> > > that photo IMO is very relevant and well chosen.
>
> > Well, if that's your view of Italian football, you are entitled to it.
> > I think it is a gross distortion, a bunch of stereotypes. In
> > particular, the idea that Italians foul more than other nations is
> > provably false. And the cheating, too. What do they mean by cheating?
> > The term is never defined, as you will notice.
>
> > Best,
>
> > SMT

To prove what a dumb fecker you are, let's look at how you contradict
yourself FF:

> But they do also take some edge over others from the "dark side", in my view at
> least. I must say, I think this view is solidly supported by facts.

<bunch o shite snipped....>

then a little further down the road:

> I don't have statistics nor do I know where to look for them, so I might be wrong. In any case
> this isn't the point.

You're right. It never was. The point has always been that you're an
envious little hater. What's new?
MH
2008-06-18 21:54:16 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> On Jun 18, 5:14 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I don't know about "real football", but their play *is* cynical and
>>dirty. To take a quote from the spanish press, "The Italians, declares
>>this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
>>other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games and
>>subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
>>Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose all
>>over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
>>quarter-final" . Now, call me out of touch with "real football" but I
>>can't see any mistake in what they say. By "subterranean play" I guess
>>they mean their knowledge of fouling and getting away with it. And
>>that photo IMO is very relevant and well chosen.
>
>
> Well, if that's your view of Italian football, you are entitled to it.
> I think it is a gross distortion, a bunch of stereotypes. In
> particular, the idea that Italians foul more than other nations is
> provably false.

Do you have statistics ? I'd be interested to see those for European
competitions at club level and international games.

While I agree that these preconceived stereotypes (which are not only
held in Spain, by the way - you'll see the same things said in Germany,
France and the UK) are nonsense or at best seriously out of date,
it is true that the Italians (like the Spanish) never seem to be in
contention for the extra fairplay places in the UEFA cup.

>And the cheating, too. What do they mean by cheating?
> The term is never defined, as you will notice.
>
> Best,
>
> SMT
>
Futbolmetrix
2008-06-18 22:52:28 UTC
Permalink
"MH" <***@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:***@ucalgary.ca...
>>
>> Well, if that's your view of Italian football, you are entitled to it.
>> I think it is a gross distortion, a bunch of stereotypes. In
>> particular, the idea that Italians foul more than other nations is
>> provably false.
>
> Do you have statistics ? I'd be interested to see those for European
> competitions at club level and international games.

Not that there's much point debating with FF, who quite clearly has a very
strong anti-Italy bias, but for what it's worth, here are the stats from
WC2006:

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany2006/statistics/teams/topfoulscommitted.html

If you convert that into a fouls per minute played stat, you get the
following:

Japan Japan 0.144444444
Italy Italy 0.153623188
England England 0.15625
Switzerland Switzerland 0.164102564
Brazil Brazil 0.166666667
Côte d'Ivoire Côte d'Ivoire 0.166666667
Korea Republic Korea Republic 0.17037037
Paraguay Paraguay 0.17037037
Poland Poland 0.17037037
Germany Germany 0.18115942
Costa Rica Costa Rica 0.181481481
Portugal Portugal 0.183333333
Sweden Sweden 0.183333333
Trinidad and Tobago Trinidad and Tobago 0.185185185
France France 0.189393939
Czech Republic Czech Republic 0.196296296
Spain Spain 0.197222222
Argentina Argentina 0.198039216
USA USA 0.203703704
Togo Togo 0.211111111
Iran Iran 0.214814815
Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia 0.214814815
Croatia Croatia 0.218518519
Serbia and Montenegro Serbia and Montenegro 0.218518519
Ecuador Ecuador 0.219444444
Ukraine Ukraine 0.225
Mexico Mexico 0.233333333
Netherlands Netherlands 0.236111111
Tunisia Tunisia 0.240740741
Australia Australia 0.272222222
Angola Angola 0.274074074
Ghana Ghana 0.277777778


So, Italy was the second least "dirty" team in the WC. Either they play very
clean football, or FF is correct that they are able to foul a lot and get
away with it.

In terms of foul suffered, the ranking is as follows:

Iran Iran 0.244444444
Croatia Croatia 0.225925926
USA USA 0.222222222
Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia 0.222222222
Italy Italy 0.220289855
Mexico Mexico 0.215384615
Spain Spain 0.213888889
Argentina Argentina 0.207843137
Côte d'Ivoire Côte d'Ivoire 0.203703704
Brazil Brazil 0.202222222
Ukraine Ukraine 0.19375
Germany Germany 0.192753623
Angola Angola 0.192592593
France France 0.190909091
Czech Republic Czech Republic 0.188888889
Switzerland Switzerland 0.187179487
Paraguay Paraguay 0.181481481
Costa Rica Costa Rica 0.181481481
Poland Poland 0.177777778
Portugal Portugal 0.175757576
Serbia and Montenegro Serbia and Montenegro 0.174074074
Ecuador Ecuador 0.172222222
Japan Japan 0.166666667
England England 0.164583333
Korea Republic Korea Republic 0.162962963
Australia Australia 0.155555556
Ghana Ghana 0.152777778
Togo Togo 0.151851852
Netherlands Netherlands 0.147222222
Sweden Sweden 0.141666667
Trinidad and Tobago Trinidad and Tobago 0.137037037
Tunisia Tunisia 0.137037037


Italy was the 5th most victimized team, and the most victimized among second
round qualifiers.
Again, it could be that Italians really were poor victims, hacked all the
time, or that they were very good at embellishing.

D
Bob
2008-06-19 05:05:16 UTC
Permalink
MH wrote:
> While I agree that these preconceived stereotypes (which are not only
> held in Spain, by the way - you'll see the same things said in
> Germany, France and the UK) are nonsense or at best seriously out of
> date,

Here's what Gianluca Vialli (who played at Juve and coached Chelsea) says
when comparing cheating in England and Italy:
"English kids, traditionally, are not taught you can get to the top by
cheating. Italians are. When I was growing up, I was not encouraged to take
a dive, yet I picked up things in subtle ways. Back then many did not view
those tricks for what they are, cheating. They were seen as clever, or as we
say in Italy, furbo.

When an opponent won a penalty against us by diving, the attitude among
coaches wasn't to condemn him for cheating but to point the finger at our
own defenders for allowing it to happen. "He was clever," we were told. "He
tricked you and the referee". We were engaging in football realpolitik.
Machiavelli famously argued that "the end justifies the means." Would he
have a problem with diving to win a penalty. Not if you were not caught.

But as Mourinho points out, in England the hatred for gamesmanship is so
strong that many foreign players who used to dive change after arriving. "If
you cheat you have no chance of being admired," says Mourinho, "even your
own supporters will dislike you."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/italian-football-under-the-microscope-culture-clash-477650.html
SMT
2008-06-19 05:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Gianluca Vialli can have his opinion. I do not believe that the
English have any special code of sportsmanship. They have had
tremendous thugs like Nobby Stiles, Tommy Smith, and on and on. They
also have had and have divers. The English may think they are special,
but they play the game like everybody else. To single out the Italians
makes no sense and is not borne out by the evidence. Every country has
players who dive, players who hit, players who insult, players who
provoke, and so on. It is not a national trait of the Italian players.
Show me the evidence. I have watched the Serie A for years, I have
seen Italian teams in all kinds of international competitions, and
their behavior is unremarkable, not really different from what you see
elsewhere.

The belief that SId Lowe condemns in his article is in fact not based
on evidence. As to the Italians feeling that they are smarter than
everybody else, that they are special, well... every country tends to
feel that, nothing new, nothing different. In the field, there is no
secret, shady Italian cheating that deprives everybody else of what
they deserve, or think they deserve. It is played with the ball, not
with the teachings of the great Italian masters of political intrigue.

Best,

SMT
Bob
2008-06-19 15:00:06 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
> Gianluca Vialli can have his opinion. I do not believe that the
> English have any special code of sportsmanship. They have had
> tremendous thugs like Nobby Stiles, Tommy Smith, and on and on. They
> also have had and have divers. The English may think they are special,
> but they play the game like everybody else. To single out the Italians
> makes no sense and is not borne out by the evidence. Every country has
> players who dive, players who hit, players who insult, players who
> provoke, and so on. It is not a national trait of the Italian players.
> Show me the evidence. I have watched the Serie A for years, I have
> seen Italian teams in all kinds of international competitions, and
> their behavior is unremarkable, not really different from what you see
> elsewhere.

I don't think Vialli is singling out italians or saying that the english
never cheat. He only pointed out some differences between these 2 football
cultures, which doesn't mean other football cultures don't share some of
these traits.
s***@gmail.com
2008-06-19 09:01:45 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 3:05 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
> MH wrote:
> "If you cheat you have no chance of being admired," says Mourinho, "even your
> own supporters will dislike you."

This is false on the basis that Steven Gerrard is loved by
Liverpoolians and English fans alike, as was Roy Keane. Two examples
of cheat, and dirty.
Jellore
2008-06-19 09:41:24 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 7:01 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 19, 3:05 pm, "Bob" <***@nogibberish.com> wrote:
>
> > MH wrote:
> > "If you cheat you have no chance of being admired," says Mourinho, "even your
> > own supporters will dislike you."
>
> This is false on the basis that Steven Gerrard is loved by
> Liverpoolians and English fans alike, as was Roy Keane. Two examples
> of cheat, and dirty.

Wrong Keano was/is hated by the Scousers.

Don't bother replying cos I already know the answer.
MH
2008-06-19 16:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:
> MH wrote:
>
>>While I agree that these preconceived stereotypes (which are not only
>>held in Spain, by the way - you'll see the same things said in
>>Germany, France and the UK) are nonsense or at best seriously out of
>>date,
>
>
> Here's what Gianluca Vialli (who played at Juve and coached Chelsea) says
> when comparing cheating in England and Italy:
> "English kids, traditionally, are not taught you can get to the top by
> cheating. Italians are. When I was growing up, I was not encouraged to take
> a dive, yet I picked up things in subtle ways. Back then many did not view
> those tricks for what they are, cheating. They were seen as clever, or as we
> say in Italy, furbo.
>
> When an opponent won a penalty against us by diving, the attitude among
> coaches wasn't to condemn him for cheating but to point the finger at our
> own defenders for allowing it to happen. "He was clever," we were told. "He
> tricked you and the referee". We were engaging in football realpolitik.
> Machiavelli famously argued that "the end justifies the means." Would he
> have a problem with diving to win a penalty. Not if you were not caught.

I think what Vialli says here may reflect what he thinks English fans
want to hear?


>
> But as Mourinho points out, in England the hatred for gamesmanship is so
> strong that many foreign players who used to dive change after arriving.

Mourinho's Chelsea was guilty of lots of diving and other cheating. I
didn't see him discouraging Robben, Drogba, and others from their antics.

"If
> you cheat you have no chance of being admired," says Mourinho, "even your
> own supporters will dislike you."

Strange, because Beckham, Owen, and Gerrard, all of whom, if one is
generous, have been known to fall over rather easily when barely
touched, are persistently defended by their fans.

Similarly, players like Carragher and Terry who are persistent foulers
and get away with an awful lot get praised for their battling qualities
and leadership.

>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/italian-football-under-the-microscope-culture-clash-477650.html
>
>
Bob
2008-06-19 16:56:56 UTC
Permalink
MH wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>> MH wrote:
>>
>>> While I agree that these preconceived stereotypes (which are not
>>> only held in Spain, by the way - you'll see the same things said in
>>> Germany, France and the UK) are nonsense or at best seriously out of
>>> date,
>>
>>
>> Here's what Gianluca Vialli (who played at Juve and coached Chelsea)
>> says when comparing cheating in England and Italy:
>> "English kids, traditionally, are not taught you can get to the top
>> by cheating. Italians are. When I was growing up, I was not
>> encouraged to take a dive, yet I picked up things in subtle ways.
>> Back then many did not view those tricks for what they are,
>> cheating. They were seen as clever, or as we say in Italy, furbo.
>>
>> When an opponent won a penalty against us by diving, the attitude
>> among coaches wasn't to condemn him for cheating but to point the
>> finger at our own defenders for allowing it to happen. "He was
>> clever," we were told. "He tricked you and the referee". We were
>> engaging in football realpolitik. Machiavelli famously argued that
>> "the end justifies the means." Would he have a problem with diving
>> to win a penalty. Not if you were not caught.
>
> I think what Vialli says here may reflect what he thinks English fans
> want to hear?

Possible, but it certainly seems to fit many people's perception and not
only english ones so you shouldn't dismiss it out of hand like you seem to
want to do.

>> But as Mourinho points out, in England the hatred for gamesmanship
>> is so strong that many foreign players who used to dive change after
>> arriving.
>
> Mourinho's Chelsea was guilty of lots of diving and other cheating. I
> didn't see him discouraging Robben, Drogba, and others from their
> antics.

He didn't say he was discouraging anyone. He said that foreign players
changed after a while. One could arguably say it has been the case for
Drogba.

>
> "If
>> you cheat you have no chance of being admired," says Mourinho, "even
>> your own supporters will dislike you."
>
> Strange, because Beckham, Owen, and Gerrard, all of whom, if one is
> generous, have been known to fall over rather easily when barely
> touched, are persistently defended by their fans.

defended by *some* fans

> Similarly, players like Carragher and Terry who are persistent foulers
> and get away with an awful lot get praised for their battling
> qualities and leadership.

you can also read a lot of criticism of these two, including here.

>
>>
>>
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/italian-football-under-the-microscope-culture-clash-477650.html
The Dissociated Press
2008-06-18 23:11:57 UTC
Permalink
I watch a lot of Serie A on the local Italian/Latino channel and find the
play to be technically masterful. It isn't "the beautiful game" as some
envision it, but it does have its appeal. It would be unfair for any nation
to insist that its idea of football represents "real" football, especially a
politically and culturally fractious hodgepodge empire like Spain.

"FairFootball" <***@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote in message
news:88405a88-ce40-49d0-baee-***@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> SMT wrote:
>> On Jun 18, 2:54 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I don't get it. From what I get, the whole of Spain fears Italy for
>> > their historically proven cynical dirty game, which includes, let's
>> > say, profiting from ref's mistakes and undecidedness. So where are
>> > they wrong ?
>>
>> That is a completely distorted view. You would find a job in the
>> Spanish press... the idea that Italy doesn't play "real football" is
>> absurd.
>
> I don't know about "real football", but their play *is* cynical and
> dirty. To take a quote from the spanish press, "The Italians, declares
> this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
> other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games and
> subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
> Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose all
> over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
> quarter-final" . Now, call me out of touch with "real football" but I
> can't see any mistake in what they say. By "subterranean play" I guess
> they mean their knowledge of fouling and getting away with it. And
> that photo IMO is very relevant and well chosen.
SMT
2008-06-18 23:20:29 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 7:11 pm, "The Dissociated Press" <***@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
> I watch a lot of Serie A on the local Italian/Latino channel and find the
> play to be technically masterful. It isn't "the beautiful game" as some
> envision it, but it does have its appeal. It would be unfair for any nation
> to insist that its idea of football represents "real" football, especially a
> politically and culturally fractious hodgepodge empire like Spain.
>

Exactly right. There is no single or "best" way to play the sport.
However, try to convince those obsessed with Italy that the Italians
don't cheat their way (to four WCs, no less, besides making the finals
and semifinals a bunch of times). This during a very long period of
seven and a half decades... it's all cheating, I'm sure. They are not
only artful cheaters: they must be Houdinis!

Best,

SMT
FairFootball
2008-06-18 23:42:43 UTC
Permalink
SMT wrote:
>
> There is no single or "best" way to play the sport.

Clichees. Where did I say anything like this ?

> However, try to convince those obsessed with Italy that the Italians
> don't cheat their way (to four WCs, no less, besides making the finals
> and semifinals a bunch of times). This during a very long period of
> seven and a half decades... it's all cheating, I'm sure. They are not
> only artful cheaters: they must be Houdinis!

More clichees.
s***@gmail.com
2008-06-19 08:38:58 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 7:14 am, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
wrote:
> SMT wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 2:54 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > I don't get it. From what I get, the whole of Spain fears Italy for
> > > their historically proven cynical dirty game, which includes, let's
> > > say, profiting from ref's mistakes and undecidedness. So where are
> > > they wrong ?
>
> > That is a completely distorted view. You would find a job in the
> > Spanish press... the idea that Italy doesn't play "real football" is
> > absurd.
>
> I don't know about "real football",

This is correct, which is why you should stop talking about something
you do not know. Leave it to the experts son.
s***@gmail.com
2008-06-19 08:37:55 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 6:08 am, SMT <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 18, 2:54 pm, FairFootball <***@domainsbyproxy.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don't get it. From what I get, the whole of Spain fears Italy for
> > their historically proven cynical dirty game, which includes, let's
> > say, profiting from ref's mistakes and undecidedness. So where are
> > they wrong ?
>
> That is a completely distorted view. You would find a job in the
> Spanish press... the idea that Italy doesn't play "real football" is
> absurd. They are one of the premier football nations, and have been
> for seven decades. What is wrong with recognizing that and talking
> about teams, games and upcoming games in a realistic fashion?
>
> Best,
>
> SMT

Fag Football is a British homer, who has let his jealousy ruin his
mind. Do you really take him seriously?
Enzo
2008-06-19 13:52:12 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 12:39 pm, SMT <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ha, Sid Lowe has it exactly right, as always.... There is no Sid Lowe
> in the Spanish sports press, unfortunately.

You mean fortunately. He knows nothing about football.

> The closest is the
> relatively sober Alfredo Relaño, but his articles don't make
> headlines. And Jorge D'Alessandro, the former goalkeeper from
> Argentina with a long career playing and coaching in Spain, who tells
> the truth on Punto Radio --- but the entire team is leaving the
> station over disagreements.
>
> I would say that 9 out of 10 football comentators in Spain are
> propagandists for something -- Real Madrid, Barça, national pride,
> Raúl, or what have you. It should not be that hard to provide some
> truthful commentary about a sport that the readers, listeners and
> viewers understand very well...
>
> Best,
>
> SMT
Enzo
2008-06-19 05:23:54 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 18, 10:19 am, Google Beta User <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Comment: Interesting article from the Guardian.
>
> Jittery Spaniards prepare for their bete noire
> After 88 years without a competitive win over Italy, Spain are
> already
> panicking about Sunday's quarter-final
> Sid LoweJune 18, 2008 1:09 PM
>
> The newsreader put on his most earnest face, smoothed down his
> moustache, looked into the camera and read from the autocue. Never
> mind that this was TVE, supposedly the sober voice of serious,
> straight news. "Spain", he said, "will play Italy. The same old
> Italy;
> the Italy that never plays football but always wins." As the tape
> rolled, a voice testily told how the Italians, "champions of the
> world
> and champions of luck", had beaten France thanks to the fact that
> "destiny favoured them yet again". The Azzurri, agreed Marca, are the
> team with "seven lives".
>
> No side provokes such distaste in Spain as Italy, whose football is
> derided as cynical, dirty and boring, somehow illegitimate. As José
> Ángel de la Casa, for decades the voice of the Spanish national team
> -
> a kind of tranquil John Motson without the obsession over his dinner,
> the sheepskin coats or those heh-heh moments - admitted with a hint
> of
> discomfort: "As a nation, we have always shown contempt towards
> Italian football." Not just because of the chance but also because of
> the "cheating". Now and over the next few days, that will become more
> evident than ever.
>
> The Italians, declares this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
> other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games
> and
> subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
> Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose
> all
> over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
> quarter-final, an elbow that "still hurts Spain". "If there is an
> image that sums up Italy v Spain meetings it's the bloody face of a
> crying Luis Enrique after getting an elbow that referee Sándor Puhl
> didn't see - or didn't want to see," Marca snipes.
>
> "Italian cheating once again went unpunished, but at least they got
> what they deserved by losing in the final with two historic penalty
> misses from their great stars: [Roberto] Baggio and [Franco] Baresi",
> Marca continues, picking on two innocent men, while the front page
> headline warns: "Italy, we have not forgotten this."
>
> They can say that again: as Roberto Palomar puts it, everywhere he
> looks he sees Luis Enrique and from now until Sunday's match there
> will be no escape as the telly goes into smashed-nose overload. "I go
> to fill the car with petrol and there's Luis Enrique vomiting blood
> behind the pump; I go to take a piss and there's Luis Enrique in the
> cubicle, doubled over, cleaning the blood off his disfigured face; I
> climb into bed and there's someone there next to my wife - it's Mauro
> Tassotti".
>
> The same Mauro Tassotti who won that day - and that's kind of the
> point. Italy, as Palomar argued, is a ghost that haunts Spain.
> Despite
> the bravado, despite the implicit threat on Marca's cover, Italy
> don't
> just inspire loathing, they inspire fear too. Lots of it. There is a
> hint of getting your excuses in early about the Spanish media today.
> And there is little hiding the disappointment when they look at
> Romania - the speedboat Jim Bowen says they could have won - and then
> back at the Italians they've actually got. One headline this morning
> simply screamed "No!". "Italy, always Italy", sighed El País. And on
> the radio they were asking an uncomfortable question: "Are you
> shitting yourself?"
>
> The answer was yes. Last night's result was the last thing the
> Spanish
> wanted: Luis Aragonés said it, the press said it and the online polls
> said it. José Vicente Hernáez signed off from yesterday evening's
> preview on Marca TV with a: "Do us a favour Holland, lose! Come on
> Romania!" Never mind the ethics, he spoke for everyone. Romania would
> have been perfect; a creaking France, just about acceptable; Italy, a
> disaster. "They're not the opponents we wanted, that's for sure,"
> mumbled Aragonés. AS likens Italy to the beetle-tick that stalks the
> Austrian mountains, ready to deliver a fatal blow with a single bite.
> As Álvaro Arbeloa put it: "Italy are always the same: they scrape
> through and then win the tournament." Which would of course mean
> beating Spain.
>
> On the face of it, Spain shouldn't be worried. In fact, they should
> be
> relishing the opportunity to bury those ghosts against a team that -
> as the commentators reminded us 37 times in the final 10 minutes last
> night - will be without Andrea Pirlo and Gennaro Gattuso. After all,
> after two games for every team, Spain had completed more passes than
> any other country, and a higher percentage too. They are No1 in
> attacks, No1 in shots and No16 (in other words the best) in shots
> faced.
>
> Better still, for all the talk of short, precise, slow build-up and
> despite its visceral defence from the talibans of tiki-taka (pass and
> move), Spain have scored six goals this tournament - five from breaks
> or, let's face it, aimless hoofs; one from a set-play. This time,
> there's real pace, a cutting edge, a will and a way to do it
> differently. And a bit of luck too. Spain have some semblance of
> togetherness at last, a team Cesc Fabregas can't even get into, after
> Aragonés sensibly recognised that his five-man midfield didn't work,
> and consequently they have David Villa - the new kid on the block,
> the
> revelation of world football who's only been the best striker in
> Spain
> for four years.
>
> And yet, apart from Cuatro TV - whose "come on!, yes!, yes!, yes!,
> you
> can do it!, go on!, yes!, that's it!, that's it!, good!, that's the
> way!, oh yes!" commentary sounds more like the soundtrack from a
> saucy
> film than five blokes narrating a football match - the Spanish have
> been strikingly calm about the tournament so far. Sure, they've been
> delighted with what they have seen. But so often bitten for once shy,
> there's been little of the tub-thumping from the last World Cup, when
> they promised to retire Zinedine Zidane three games before Marco
> Materazzi actually did and announced themselves the best side in the
> tournament after a single game.
>
> Not least because there's a recognition of their failings. Attack may
> be the best form of defence but there are fears about the back four,
> about the weakness of Carles Puyol and Carlos Marchena and the huge
> dip in form of Sergio Ramos. There's concern too about the anaemic
> performances of Andrés Iniesta and an unusual recognition that, even
> as Spain prepare to play tonight's match with the rare luxury of
> fielding a team of subs, they've not actually won anything - the
> message conveyed by players and press alike. The real stuff starts
> here; the very point at which Spain normally end.
>
> If Romania awaited, they might now have begun to believe. But it's
> Italy. And as the editor of AS put it: "Italy don't scare me, they
> terrify me." Italy. Spain's bete noire (even if their last
> competitive
> game was that one 14 years ago). Italy. The side seemingly best
> equipped to undo Spain's technical yet lightweight midfield. Italy.
> In
> the quarter-final. On June 22. The team they have not beaten in a
> competitive match for 88 years. At the traditionally insurmountable
> hurdle, the stage they have not passed in 24 years. On the same date
> that they have been knocked out for each of the last three
> tournaments.
>
> Happily, there is one, big difference this time. Not the absence of
> Tassotti - after all, the man with the razor-sharp elbows will be on
> the bench on Sunday - but the absence of the other sadly decisive man
> from that day in the US. This time, Spain have David Villa and
> Fernando Torres, not Julio Salinas.

What a douchebag.
Advise - dont read him.
SMT
2008-06-19 14:37:00 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 1:23 am, Enzo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> What a douchebag.
> Advise - dont read him.

Douchebag? Sid is an excellent sports writer. Right on target. He sees
the humor in all of this, too.

Best,

SMT
Enzo
2008-06-19 14:52:35 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 10:37 am, SMT <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 19, 1:23 am, Enzo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > What a douchebag.
> > Advise - dont read him.
>
> Douchebag? Sid is an excellent sports writer. Right on target. He sees
> the humor in all of this, too.
>
> Best,
>
> SMT

Could be, but he doesnt know football from handball.
s***@gmail.com
2008-06-19 08:36:13 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 19, 12:19 am, Google Beta User <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Comment: Interesting article from the Guardian.
>
> Jittery Spaniards prepare for their bete noire
> After 88 years without a competitive win over Italy, Spain are
> already
> panicking about Sunday's quarter-final
> Sid LoweJune 18, 2008 1:09 PM
>
> The newsreader put on his most earnest face, smoothed down his
> moustache, looked into the camera and read from the autocue. Never
> mind that this was TVE, supposedly the sober voice of serious,
> straight news. "Spain", he said, "will play Italy. The same old
> Italy;
> the Italy that never plays football but always wins." As the tape
> rolled, a voice testily told how the Italians, "champions of the
> world
> and champions of luck", had beaten France thanks to the fact that
> "destiny favoured them yet again". The Azzurri, agreed Marca, are the
> team with "seven lives".
>
> No side provokes such distaste in Spain as Italy, whose football is
> derided as cynical, dirty and boring, somehow illegitimate. As José
> Ángel de la Casa, for decades the voice of the Spanish national team
> -
> a kind of tranquil John Motson without the obsession over his dinner,
> the sheepskin coats or those heh-heh moments - admitted with a hint
> of
> discomfort: "As a nation, we have always shown contempt towards
> Italian football." Not just because of the chance but also because of
> the "cheating". Now and over the next few days, that will become more
> evident than ever.
>
> The Italians, declares this morning's Marca, "are experts in 'the
> other football', the maestros of time-wasting, of destroying games
> and
> subterranean play". The paper's cover runs with the photo of Luis
> Enrique, blood covering his shirt, after Tassotti smashed his nose
> all
> over his face in the penalty area at the end of the 1994 World Cup
> quarter-final, an elbow that "still hurts Spain". "If there is an
> image that sums up Italy v Spain meetings it's the bloody face of a
> crying Luis Enrique after getting an elbow that referee Sándor Puhl
> didn't see - or didn't want to see," Marca snipes.
>
> "Italian cheating once again went unpunished, but at least they got
> what they deserved by losing in the final with two historic penalty
> misses from their great stars: [Roberto] Baggio and [Franco] Baresi",
> Marca continues, picking on two innocent men, while the front page
> headline warns: "Italy, we have not forgotten this."
>
> They can say that again: as Roberto Palomar puts it, everywhere he
> looks he sees Luis Enrique and from now until Sunday's match there
> will be no escape as the telly goes into smashed-nose overload. "I go
> to fill the car with petrol and there's Luis Enrique vomiting blood
> behind the pump; I go to take a piss and there's Luis Enrique in the
> cubicle, doubled over, cleaning the blood off his disfigured face; I
> climb into bed and there's someone there next to my wife - it's Mauro
> Tassotti".
>
> The same Mauro Tassotti who won that day - and that's kind of the
> point. Italy, as Palomar argued, is a ghost that haunts Spain.
> Despite
> the bravado, despite the implicit threat on Marca's cover, Italy
> don't
> just inspire loathing, they inspire fear too. Lots of it. There is a
> hint of getting your excuses in early about the Spanish media today.
> And there is little hiding the disappointment when they look at
> Romania - the speedboat Jim Bowen says they could have won - and then
> back at the Italians they've actually got. One headline this morning
> simply screamed "No!". "Italy, always Italy", sighed El País. And on
> the radio they were asking an uncomfortable question: "Are you
> shitting yourself?"
>
> The answer was yes. Last night's result was the last thing the
> Spanish
> wanted: Luis Aragonés said it, the press said it and the online polls
> said it. José Vicente Hernáez signed off from yesterday evening's
> preview on Marca TV with a: "Do us a favour Holland, lose! Come on
> Romania!" Never mind the ethics, he spoke for everyone. Romania would
> have been perfect; a creaking France, just about acceptable; Italy, a
> disaster. "They're not the opponents we wanted, that's for sure,"
> mumbled Aragonés. AS likens Italy to the beetle-tick that stalks the
> Austrian mountains, ready to deliver a fatal blow with a single bite.
> As Álvaro Arbeloa put it: "Italy are always the same: they scrape
> through and then win the tournament." Which would of course mean
> beating Spain.
>
> On the face of it, Spain shouldn't be worried. In fact, they should
> be
> relishing the opportunity to bury those ghosts against a team that -
> as the commentators reminded us 37 times in the final 10 minutes last
> night - will be without Andrea Pirlo and Gennaro Gattuso. After all,
> after two games for every team, Spain had completed more passes than
> any other country, and a higher percentage too. They are No1 in
> attacks, No1 in shots and No16 (in other words the best) in shots
> faced.
>
> Better still, for all the talk of short, precise, slow build-up and
> despite its visceral defence from the talibans of tiki-taka (pass and
> move), Spain have scored six goals this tournament - five from breaks
> or, let's face it, aimless hoofs; one from a set-play. This time,
> there's real pace, a cutting edge, a will and a way to do it
> differently. And a bit of luck too. Spain have some semblance of
> togetherness at last, a team Cesc Fabregas can't even get into, after
> Aragonés sensibly recognised that his five-man midfield didn't work,
> and consequently they have David Villa - the new kid on the block,
> the
> revelation of world football who's only been the best striker in
> Spain
> for four years.
>
> And yet, apart from Cuatro TV - whose "come on!, yes!, yes!, yes!,
> you
> can do it!, go on!, yes!, that's it!, that's it!, good!, that's the
> way!, oh yes!" commentary sounds more like the soundtrack from a
> saucy
> film than five blokes narrating a football match - the Spanish have
> been strikingly calm about the tournament so far. Sure, they've been
> delighted with what they have seen. But so often bitten for once shy,
> there's been little of the tub-thumping from the last World Cup, when
> they promised to retire Zinedine Zidane three games before Marco
> Materazzi actually did and announced themselves the best side in the
> tournament after a single game.
>
> Not least because there's a recognition of their failings. Attack may
> be the best form of defence but there are fears about the back four,
> about the weakness of Carles Puyol and Carlos Marchena and the huge
> dip in form of Sergio Ramos. There's concern too about the anaemic
> performances of Andrés Iniesta and an unusual recognition that, even
> as Spain prepare to play tonight's match with the rare luxury of
> fielding a team of subs, they've not actually won anything - the
> message conveyed by players and press alike. The real stuff starts
> here; the very point at which Spain normally end.
>
> If Romania awaited, they might now have begun to believe. But it's
> Italy. And as the editor of AS put it: "Italy don't scare me, they
> terrify me." Italy. Spain's bete noire (even if their last
> competitive
> game was that one 14 years ago). Italy. The side seemingly best
> equipped to undo Spain's technical yet lightweight midfield. Italy.
> In
> the quarter-final. On June 22. The team they have not beaten in a
> competitive match for 88 years. At the traditionally insurmountable
> hurdle, the stage they have not passed in 24 years. On the same date
> that they have been knocked out for each of the last three
> tournaments.
>
> Happily, there is one, big difference this time. Not the absence of
> Tassotti - after all, the man with the razor-sharp elbows will be on
> the bench on Sunday - but the absence of the other sadly decisive man
> from that day in the US. This time, Spain have David Villa and
> Fernando Torres, not Julio Salinas.

It's true what is said. Spanish sports press hate Italy. They go over
the top sometimes, but like SMT says, no one really take them
seriously. In 2002 they were calling Italy babies and conspiracy
theorists after the South Korea game, then the next day they were
joining them crying that Spain was robbed. Spanish press is high
comedy. The hate is there though.
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